The Baroness Saltoun, Alexander Ramsay, and Katharine Fraser

[m***@gmail.com]

I have questions about these people.

First of all, what exactly was the title held by Alexander Ramsay of
Mar? Was he a feudal baron, a laird, or a chief, or something
different? Was it inherited by his daughter upon his death?

I've seen The Hon. Katharine Fraser referred to as "The Mistress of
Mar." How is this correct? Mar is not a Scottish viscountcy or a
Lordship of Parliament. If anything, shouldn't she be "The Mistress of
Fraser," being the heiress-presumptive to her mother's barony? If
Katharine inherited the "of Mar", wouldn't she be "Lady Mar" or "Madam
Fraser of Mar"?

Also, are heirs-apparent and presumptive of Scottish viscountcies and
Lordships of Parliament referred to as "The Hon. The Master/Mistress
of..."?

[m***@gmail.com]

Oh, and also... my assumption is that the correct title of Katherine
Fraser is "The Hon. Madam Fraser of Mar". Is that correct? And is her
son Alexander correctly called "Alexander Fraser of Mar, younger"?

[Louis Epstein]

Post by m***@gmail.com
Oh, and also... my assumption is that the correct title of Katherine
Fraser is "The Hon. Madam Fraser of Mar". Is that correct? And is her
son Alexander correctly called "Alexander Fraser of Mar, younger"?

Note that this feudal lairdship "of Mar",totally distinct,
as previously noted,from the ancient Earldom,besides having
all its privileges eviscerated by the ill-begotten "Scottish
Parliament",depends on certain lands remaining in the family.

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

[MarleneKoenig]

Post by m***@gmail.com
Oh, and also... my assumption is that the correct title of Katherine
Fraser is "The Hon. Madam Fraser of Mar". Is that correct? And is her
son Alexander correctly called "Alexander Fraser of Mar, younger"?

None of this is correct. Kate's first name is Katharine. Since her marriage in
1980, she has been styled as the Hon. the Mrs. Mark Nicolson. Her son is
Master Alexander Fraser but will be styled as the Hon. Alexander Fraser when
his mother succeeds to the Lordship.

author of A Grand Alliance - the descendants of Grand Duke Michael of Russia
and Countess Sophie von Merenberg. For more information, write to
***@aol.com

[Kelly]

Post by m***@gmail.com
I have questions about these people.
I've seen The Hon. Katharine Fraser referred to as "The Mistress of
Mar." How is this correct? Mar is not a Scottish viscountcy or a
Lordship of Parliament. If anything, shouldn't she be "The Mistress of
Fraser," being the heiress-presumptive to her mother's barony? If
Katharine inherited the "of Mar", wouldn't she be "Lady Mar" or "Madam
Fraser of Mar"?
Also, are heirs-apparent and presumptive of Scottish viscountcies and
Lordships of Parliament referred to as "The Hon. The Master/Mistress
of..."?

http://www.debretts.co.uk/etiquette/correct_forms_of_address.html#M

Kelly
--
What we see depends mainly on what we look for.

[m***@gmail.com]

sorry, I don't see anything answering my questions on that page... it
says nothing about feudal barons, lairds, or chiefs.

[Kelly]

Post by m***@gmail.com
sorry, I don't see anything answering my questions on that page... it
says nothing about feudal barons, lairds, or chiefs.

But it does say something about Masters/Mistresses, which is the part I
responded to.

If you ever got around to googling for your own answers instead of expecting
ppl here to answer them, you'd be amazed what you could find.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Styles_and_titles_of_peers

Kelly
--
What we see depends mainly on what we look for.

[m***@gmail.com]

But what it says about Masters/Mistresses doesn't help me. Alexander
Ramsay of Mar had no viscountcy or barony. He just had the "of Mar,"
and I have no idea why his daughter would be the mistress of it. And, I
have googled it, but I haven't found any answers to it. That page you
just linked to said nothing about why she would be a Mistress of Mar as
opposed to a Mistress of Saltoun or Madam Fraser of Mar.

[Kelly]

Post by m***@gmail.com
He just had the "of Mar,"
and I have no idea why his daughter would be the mistress of it.

Where did you see The Hon Katherine Fraser listed as "Mistress of Mar"?
Because there is a Countess of Mar, whose daughter Susan is titled "Mistress
of Mar" as the heir presumptive. Alexander Ramsay of Mar has been called a
Laird in documents I've seen, which may explain his "of Mar" appendage, but
his daughter by Lady Saltoun seems to be listed as The Hon Katherine Fraser,
rather than as Mistress of anything (I haven't found any listings of her as
being of Mar or Saltoun), as she is heir to the Fraser title and
chieftainship.

Kelly

[Louis Epstein]

Post by Kelly

Post by m***@gmail.com
He just had the "of Mar,"
and I have no idea why his daughter would be the mistress of it.

Where did you see The Hon Katherine Fraser listed as "Mistress of Mar"?
Because there is a Countess of Mar, whose daughter Susan is titled "Mistress
of Mar" as the heir presumptive.

Exactly.There is one Mistress of Mar,and it's Lady Susan Helen of Mar
(since 1961 her branch of the family have abandoned modern surnames for
the "[Given Name] of Mar" names that were used by their ancestors until
the 14th century,this is in modern parlance the same as taking "of Mar"
as a family name;daughters of holders of the title have retained it on
marriage).

Post by Kelly
Alexander Ramsay of Mar has been called a Laird in documents I've seen,
which may explain his "of Mar" appendage,

Alexander Ramsay inherited some of the ancestral lands of the
Earls of Mar,which had passed out of that family previously,
from a cousin.

Post by Kelly
but his daughter by Lady Saltoun seems to be listed as The Hon
Katherine Fraser, rather than as Mistress of anything (I haven't found
any listings of her as being of Mar or Saltoun), as she is heir to the
Fraser title

Saltoun is the title...

Post by Kelly
and chieftainship.

chiefship,I believe...a clan,not a sept,
though there is a separate chiefship of
Fraser of Lovat.

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

[MarleneKoenig]

Post by Kelly
Where did you see The Hon Katherine Fraser listed as "Mistress of Mar"?

Kate is actually the Hon. Mrs. Mark Nicolson. Her birth surname was Ramsay,
but when it became apparent that her mother was not going to give birth to a
son (after 3 girls), Kate's surname was changed to Fraser. She was the Hon.
Katharine Fraser until her marriage. She and Mark have three children. The two
daughters are surnamed Nicolson and their son, Alexander, known as Xander, has
the surname Fraser since birth.

author of A Grand Alliance - the descendants of Grand Duke Michael of Russia
and Countess Sophie von Merenberg. For more information, write to
***@aol.com

[Louis Epstein]

Post by MarleneKoenig

Post by Kelly
Where did you see The Hon Katherine Fraser listed as "Mistress of Mar"?

Kate is actually the Hon. Mrs. Mark Nicolson. Her birth surname was Ramsay,
but when it became apparent that her mother was not going to give birth to a
son (after 3 girls), Kate's surname was changed to Fraser. She was the Hon.
Katharine Fraser until her marriage.

AND THEREAFTER...I know we have differed on this before,
Marlene,but it makes no sense for her to adopt the surname
of the clan whose Chief she stands to become only until
marriage and then drop it.As James Dempster as pointed out
women under Scots law are assumed to keep their maiden
names and must sign them on documents;there is no contradiction
between her being Katherine Fraser and her being Mrs. Nicolson,
and she is BOTH.

Post by MarleneKoenig
She and Mark have three children. The two
daughters are surnamed Nicolson and their son, Alexander, known as Xander,
has the surname Fraser since birth.

And apparently the daughter born before Alexander was born
a Fraser but his birth turned her into a Nicolson.
(Again...no sense at all for any Fraser children if BOTH
parents were Nicolsons!)

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

[MarleneKoenig]

Post by Louis Epstein
And apparently the daughter born before Alexander was born
a Fraser but his birth turned her into a Nicolson.

No Louise and Juliet were born as Nicolson .. ALexander was born as Fraser
due to the fact that his parents registered his name as Fraser due to an
arrangement with the Lord Lyon of Scotland.

Kate and Mark decided before they married -- and I have known Kate for more
than 30 years - that their daughters would be surnamed Nicolson, but their
first son -- if they had a son - would have the surname Fraser .. and if they
had only girls, the eldest would eventually have taken the surname Fraser, just
as Kate did (she was born a Ramsay.)
As Xander will one day be the Chief of the Clan Fraser, it makes sense to have
that surname. Kate and Mark announced his surname when he was born - in the
Court Circular.

author of A Grand Alliance - the descendants of Grand Duke Michael of Russia
and Countess Sophie von Merenberg. For more information, write to
***@aol.com

[Kelly]

"MarleneKoenig" wrote in message news:***@mb-m06.aol.com...

| Kate is actually the Hon. Mrs. Mark Nicolson.

The Hon Mrs Nicolson, no? The Hon Mrs Mark would imply that he was an
Honourable but she was not.

I'm not knowledgeable enough about Scots law to discern her surname, though
this site (unofficial as it may be) calls her Fraser.
http://www.fergusscottishfestival.com/clans/clansladysaltoun.htm

[Louis Epstein]

Post by Kelly
| Kate is actually the Hon. Mrs. Mark Nicolson.
The Hon Mrs Nicolson, no? The Hon Mrs Mark would imply that he was an
Honourable but she was not.
I'm not knowledgeable enough about Scots law to discern her surname, though
this site (unofficial as it may be) calls her Fraser.
http://www.fergusscottishfestival.com/clans/clansladysaltoun.htm

I believe that just as there was "The Princess Anne,Mrs. Mark Phillips",
there is now "The Honourable Katharine Fraser,Mrs. Mark Nicolson".

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

[MarleneKoenig]

Post by Louis Epstein
believe that just as there was "The Princess Anne,Mrs. Mark Phillips",
there is now "The Honourable Katharine Fraser,Mrs. Mark Nicolson".

What works for the royals does not work for children of peers ... The Hon. Mrs.
Nicolson - uses her married name - neither of her maiden names.

author of A Grand Alliance - the descendants of Grand Duke Michael of Russia
and Countess Sophie von Merenberg. For more information, write to
***@aol.com

[MarleneKoenig]

Post by MarleneKoenig
The Hon. Mrs.
Nicolson - uses her married name - neither of her maiden names.

IN the Index of Courtesy titles in Debrett's Peerage --

Nicolson, Hon. Katharine

author of A Grand Alliance - the descendants of Grand Duke Michael of Russia
and Countess Sophie von Merenberg. For more information, write to
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[MarleneKoenig]

Post by Kelly
I'm not knowledgeable enough about Scots law to discern her surname, though
this site (unofficial as it may be) calls her Fraser.

Kelly, I have known Kate for more than 30 years - just got their Christmas card
-
She was Kate Ramsay when I first met her, and then Kate Fraser, and then Kate
Nicolson - she certainly uses her married name ..

author of A Grand Alliance - the descendants of Grand Duke Michael of Russia
and Countess Sophie von Merenberg. For more information, write to
***@aol.com

[m***@gmail.com]

Here:

http://www.angelfire.com/dc/fjohansen/old/royalgen/victoria.html
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.heraldry/browse_frm/thread/4b000bdefd50ae52/dbf45c46ccaa0b0e?q=mistress+of+mar+fraser&_done=%2Fgroup%2Falt.talk.royalty%2Fsearch%3Fgroup%3Dalt.talk.royalty%26q%3Dmistress+of+mar+fraser%26qt_g%3D1%26searchnow%3DSearch+this+group%26&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#dbf45c46ccaa0b0e

Oh... and as a side note, what would Katherine Fraser be titled? "The
Hon. Mrs. Fraser" or still "The Hon. Katherine Fraser"?

[Kelly]

<***@gmail.com> wrote in message news:***@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
| Here:
|
|[snipped links]

| Oh... and as a side note, what would Katherine Fraser be titled? "The
| Hon. Mrs. Fraser" or still "The Hon. Katherine Fraser"?

That page and post was incorrect in calling her Mistress of Mar, because
that title belongs to the heir presumptive to the Countess of Mar.

As far as what she's called, she could probably be called either of those
two, or The Hon Mrs Nicolson (if that is now her surname). But not the Hon
Mrs Mark Nicolson, because that implies that her husband in a Honourable,
while she is not. For example, The Hon Mrs Stanley is the wife of The Hon
Peter Stanley and the daughter of the late Lord Fermoy (Diana's uncle).

Don't take this as a definite, but this site lists her as The Hon Katherine
Fraser. http://www.fergusscottishfestival.com/clans/clansladysaltoun.htm

Kelly

[m***@gmail.com]

Would Alexander Ramsay's lairdship/chiefship/feudal barony have been
inherited by his daughter? If so, should she be called "The Hon. Madam
Fraser of Mar" or "Lady Mar", as a Lady? Is there any reason why she
didn't inherit it, or why she might not choose to use her title? Are
Honourables ranked higher than lairds? If so, then on a legal document,
might she be referred to as "Madam Fraser of Mar, commonly called The
Hon. Katherine Fraser"?

[Louis Epstein]

Post by m***@gmail.com
Would Alexander Ramsay's lairdship/chiefship/feudal barony have been
inherited by his daughter? If so, should she be called "The Hon. Madam
Fraser of Mar" or "Lady Mar", as a Lady?

There is only one Lady Mar,
and that is The Countess of Mar!

Post by m***@gmail.com
Is there any reason why she didn't inherit it, or why she might not
choose to use her title? Are Honourables ranked higher than lairds? If
so, then on a legal document, might she be referred to as "Madam Fraser
of Mar, commonly called The Hon. Katherine Fraser"?

Her mother's title...a Lordship of Parliament of Baronial degree...
is certainly higher than her father's...a merely feudal Barony if that,
I am not sure if it was that.The use of "of Mar" by this family is a bit
problematic,as I am not sure the lands from which they draw the title
were ever erected as a barony by the same name as the ancient Earldom
of which they constituted a part.(However,I gather it predates the
resumption of that ancient name by James Clifton Lane,then heir
presumptive to the Earl,in 1961).

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

[m***@gmail.com]

In 1959, the "of Mar" was added by the Lord Lyon King of Arms after
Ramsay inheriting his aunt HRH Princess Arthur of Connaught's lands.

Oh, I see... she didn't inherit it. As I read this article, I just saw
that Alexander Ramsay of Mar sold the estates to the National Trust of
Scotland due to financial difficulties. Okay, I get it now. The estate
wasn't inherited by his daughter, the "Mistress of Mar" was incorrect,
and she chose not to be called "The Mistress of Saltoun." I get it.
Though, if she did inherit the Mar estates, she would have to be called
"The Hon. Madam Fraser of Mar," since "The Hon. Lady Mar" would cause
some confusion.

[MarleneKoenig]

Post by m***@gmail.com
why she would be a Mistress of Mar as
opposed to a Mistress of Saltoun or Madam Fraser of Mar.

Kate is neither a Mistress of Mar or a Mistress of Saltoun. Her mother is The
Lady Saltoun (not Baroness) as the 5th Grade in the Scottish Peerage is Lord of
Parliament (which is the equal to Baron). Kate is an Honourable. She is the
heiress apparent to her mother.

author of A Grand Alliance - the descendants of Grand Duke Michael of Russia
and Countess Sophie von Merenberg. For more information, write to
***@aol.com

[m***@gmail.com]

Well, not heiress apparent, just presumptive (though her mother is
obviously to old to bear a son). Anyway, heiresses-presumptive or
apparent of Scottish peerages are styled as "The Mistress of ______",
correct? So why isn't The Hon. Katherine Fraser styled "The Mistress of
Saltoun"?

Or could she be "The Hon. Madam Fraser of Mar," if she inherited her
fathers lairdship (or whatever it's called)?

[MarleneKoenig]

Post by m***@gmail.com
Well, not heiress apparent, just presumptive (though her mother is
obviously to old to bear a son).

She is the heiress apparent because there are no heirs between her and her
mother.

Her mother holds a Lordship - the lowest grade in the Scots peerage ...
children, including the heir are titled Hon. Nothing more. The Hon. Katharine
Fraser before her marriage

author of A Grand Alliance - the descendants of Grand Duke Michael of Russia
and Countess Sophie von Merenberg. For more information, write to
***@aol.com

[fitzw]

Post by MarleneKoenig

Post by m***@gmail.com
Well, not heiress apparent, just presumptive (though her mother is
obviously too old to bear a son).

She is the heiress apparent because there are no heirs between her and her
mother.

" Kate is actually the Hon. Mrs. Mark Nicolson. Her birth surname was
Ramsay,
but when it became apparent that her mother was not going to give birth
to a
son (after 3 girls), Kate's surname was changed to Fraser. She was the
Hon.
Katharine Fraser until her marriage. She and Mark have three children.
The two
daughters are surnamed Nicolson and their son, Alexander, known as
Xander, has
the surname Fraser since birth."

One important thing to remenber is that The Lady Saltoun of Abernethy
is Chief of the Name and Arms of Fraser. That means that she must bear
the surname of Fraser, by the requirements of being a Chief as
established by the Lord Lyon.

She has given birth to three daughters. A dignity in the peerage of
Scotland will not be held in abeyance but decends to the eldest.
However, the eldest still will be the 'heiress presumptive' because the
theoretical possibility exists that there might be a son. (She would
have been 'heiress apparant' if Lady Saltoun had given birth to an
oldest son who in turn gave birth to an only daughter, afterwhich birth
the son died. The granddaughter would then have undisputed right to
claim the Lordship of Parliament.)

Katharine, as eldest daughter, designated to inherit the Chiefship of
Fraser must also bear the surname Fraser, and did so in 1973 by warrant
of the Lord Lyon taking at the same time a version of her mother's
arms. She may choose to be known socially as Mrs. Nicolson in addition
to that. In documents referring to armorial bearings, she may be
idenified as "Katharine Fraser or Nicholson."


Alexander, as the eldest son, and also designated to inheit the
Chiefsip must also bear the surname Fraser.

This idea of inheriting a Chiefship is bound up with the inheritance of
the armorial bearings. Lyon rules on who owns the appropriate arms, and
then everything else flows from that, titles and all.

[fitzw]

Post by MarleneKoenig

Post by m***@gmail.com
Well, not heiress apparent, just presumptive (though her mother is
obviously too old to bear a son).

She is the heiress apparent because there are no heirs between her and her
mother.

" Kate is actually the Hon. Mrs. Mark Nicolson. Her birth surname was
Ramsay,
but when it became apparent that her mother was not going to give birth
to a
son (after 3 girls), Kate's surname was changed to Fraser. She was the
Hon.
Katharine Fraser until her marriage. She and Mark have three children.
The two
daughters are surnamed Nicolson and their son, Alexander, known as
Xander, has
the surname Fraser since birth."

One important thing to remenber is that The Lady Saltoun of Abernethy
is Chief of the Name and Arms of Fraser. That means that she must bear
the surname of Fraser, by the requirements of being a Chief as
established by the Lord Lyon.

She has given birth to three daughters. A dignity in the peerage of
Scotland will not be held in abeyance but decends to the eldest.
However, the eldest still will be the 'heiress presumptive' because the
theoretical possibility exists that there might be a son. (She would
have been 'heiress apparant' if Lady Saltoun had given birth to an
oldest son who in turn gave birth to an only daughter, afterwhich birth
the son died. The granddaughter would then have undisputed right to
claim the Lordship of Parliament.)

Katharine, as eldest daughter, designated to inherit the Chiefship of
Fraser must also bear the surname Fraser, and did so in 1973 by warrant
of the Lord Lyon taking at the same time a version of her mother's
arms. She may choose to be known socially as Mrs. Nicolson in addition
to that. In documents referring to armorial bearings, she may be
idenified as "Katharine Fraser or Nicholson."


Alexander, as the eldest son, and also designated to inheit the
Chiefsip must also bear the surname Fraser.

This idea of inheriting a Chiefship is bound up with the inheritance of
the armorial bearings. Lyon rules on who owns the appropriate arms, and
then everything else flows from that, titles and all.