Douglas Richardson
2003-09-30 18:58:23 UTC
I appear to have made a couple of typo's in my earlier post. To avoid
confusion, I've decided to correct the typo's and post a revised
version of my first post. Mea culpa. DR
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
Dear Newsgroup ~
Polydore Vergil stated in his history of the reign of King Richard III
that just prior to overthrowing King Richard III, while still in
France, Henry Tudor [future Henry VII] received rumor that King
Richard III had married his [i.e., Richard's] niece, Cecily
Plantagenet, daughter of King Edward IV, to an "obscure man." An
exact quote from Vergil reads as follows:
"Henry [Tudor] he departyd to Roan [Rouen]. While he taryed here,
and riggyd his navy at the mouth of Seyne, a rumor came unto his eare
that king Richard, his wife being dead, was amyndyd to mary Elizabeth,
his brother Edwardes dowghter, and that he had maryed Cecyly, Edwards
other daughter, unto an obscure man of no reputation." [Reference:
Henry Ellis, Three Books of Polydore Vergil's English History (Camden
Soc. 29) (1844): 215].
Alison Weir makes reference to this passage in Vergil in her book, The
Princes in the Tower (1992), pg. 206, where she states:
" Vergil states that when Henry Tudor, in France, learned what was
afoot, [he] was even more downcast when he heard that Richard
proposed to marry Elizabeth's sister Cecily to an unknown knight so
that Henry should be baulked of yet another Yorkist princess." END OF
QUOTE.
Since Vergil first reported the "rumor" of Cecily Plantagenet's
marriage to an "obscure man," historians and genealogists have largely
ignored Cecily Plantagenet's possible first marriage. Recent
scholarly research indicates, however, that King Richard III did in
fact marry Cecily Plantagenet to someone as alleged by Vergil in his
history. The correction volume to the Complete Peerage series, volume
14 (1998), pg. 626 (sub Welles) states that Cecily Plantagenet married
" .... sometime after June 1482, probably after the accession of
Richard III" to "Ralph Scrope of Upsall, brother of Thomas Lord Scrope
of Upsall. This marriage was dissolved in 1486." END OF QUOTE.
The source cited by C.P. 14 for this information is Rosemary Horrox,
Richard III, A Study in Service, 1989, pg. 295.
This past week I had a chance to examine Rosemary Horrox's work and
she mentions Cecily Plantagenet's marriage to Ralph Scrope in passing
in her book on the page cited by C.P. 14. In a footnote, however,
Horrox in turn cites as her source for this marriage two other works:
R.H. Helmholz, Marriage Litigation in Medieval England (1974): 160,
note 89; and S.B. Chrimes, Henry VII (1972): 3536.
I've since examined both the work by Helmholz and the work by Chrimes
which are cited by Horrox. Chrimes states that all of King Edward
IV's daughters were unmarried in 1485, and, in a footnote, he lists
all of these daughters by name and gives particulars of their lives
and marriages. He includes Cecily in this list but he does not
mention any marriage to Ralph Scrope.
As for Helmholz, on pages 160-161, he includes a long discussion
regarding the lack of surviving divorce reccords in medieval England
for gentry and nobility, which discussion reads as follows:
"The absence of litigants of the upper classes is also worthy of note.
It is fairly certain that the cases where the record gives no
occupation for the parties did not involve people of higher standing.
We can infer this because when they did appear, their status was
specifically identified. Their title was given, they were
specifically styled dominus, or the fact of their lordship of a manor
was recorded. Several examples appears in the Cause papers at York
[see Footnote 89]. In fact, the York records and the
thirteenth-century Canterbury sede vacante material produce almost all
the litigants of the upper classes that we have. In other dioceses,
few or no persons of any rank appear [see Footnote 90]. This may seem
strange. We usually think it was the upper classes which made most
liberal use of marriage law, especially in suits for divorce. The
most likely explanation for their absence from our records is that the
gentry and nobility usually brought their disputes directly to the
bishop, to be heard by him in person or in his court of audience
Also there is reference to marriage cases involving upper class
families in most Episcopal registers. This again suggests that these
people went directly to the bishop. Perhaps greater privacy was thus
available." END OF QUOTE.
Below the discussion above are two footnotes numbered 89 and 90 which
read as follows:
Footnote 89: "York Consistory Act Book, vol. 4, f. 88r (1486) is a
suit between preclara ac nobilis domina domina Cecilia Plantagenet
contra Radulphum Scrope de Upsall." Other examples of upper class
litigants: York C.P. E 12/1 (1323); C.P. E 46 (1340); C.P. E 179
(1390); C.P. E 259 (1368-9); Canterbury Ecc. Suit, no. 203 (1294); no.
219 (1301); no. 297 (1293).
Footnote 90: "An exception is Lichfield B/C/1/1, f. 270r (1469),
where a litigant was styled armiger."
While Mr. Helmholz makes no effort to identify Lady Cecily
Plantagenet, it is obvious that she was in fact King Edward IV's
daughter and that she was married by King Richard III as alleged in
Vergil's history to someone below her station.
C.P. 14 dates Cecily Plantagenet's marriage to Ralph Scrope as having
taken place "sometime after June 1482." The June 1482 date appears to
be derived from the first of three documents found in Foedera, by
Thomas Rymer, as follows:
l. Agreement dated 11 June 1482 between King Edward IV and Alexander
Stewart, Duke of Albany, contains provision that if Alexander can make
himself "clere from all other Women," that within the following year
King Edward shall "gyf my Lady Cecille his Douchter on the said
Alexander" [Reference: T. Rymer, Fdera 12 (1727): 156157].
2. Document dated 4 Aug. 1482 regarding proposed marriage of the
"Ritht Noble Princes Cecile" and James, first born son of King James
III of Scotland [Reference: T. Rymer, Fdera 12 (1727): 161-162].
3. Document dated 12 Oct. 1482, whereby King Edward IV utterly rejects
the proposed marriage between his daughter, "Cicile," and James, son
of James, King of Scotland [Reference: T. Rymer, Fdera 12 (1727):
165-166].
We see that Cecily Plantagenet was definitely unmarried as late as 12
October 1482, when her father, King Edward IV, "utterly" rejected a
proposal of marriage for her and the son of the King of Scotland. As
noted above, Chrimes' states that all of King Edward IV's daughters
(including Cecily) were unmarried in 1485. As such, the marriage of
Cecily Plantagenet and Ralph Scrope must have occurred after 12
October 1482 and probably sometime in 1485, just before Henry Tudor
invaded England and defeated and killed King Richard III as the Battle
of Bosworth 22 August 1485.
As for the identity of Ralph Scrope of Upsall, he is doubtless the
same individual as Ralph Scrope of Masham (or Upsall), 3rd son of
Thomas Scrope, 5th Lord Scrope of Masham (died 1475), by his wife,
Elizabeth de Greystoke. On his brother, Henry's death without issue
in 1512, he succeeded as 9th Lord Scrope of Masham (or Upsall)
[Reference: C.P. 11 (1949): 571-572 (sub Scrope)]. While hardly from
an obscure family, being the younger landless son of a deceased baron,
Ralph Scrope was surely much below Cecily Plantagenet's station.
Curiously, C.P. 14 makes no mention of Ralph Scrope's brief marriage
to Cecily Plantagenet under its listing of corrections and additions
for the Scrope family.
I find that Ralph Scrope and Cecily Plantagenet were blood related as
follows:
John of Gaunt, Duke of Aquitaine and Lancaster
/
Robert Ferrers = (1) Joan Beaufort (2) = Ralph Neville
__________/ _____/
/ /
Elizabeth Ferrers Cecily Neville
=John Greystoke =Richard, Duke of York
/ /
Ralph Greystoke King Edward IV of England
= Elizabeth Fitz Hugh =Elizabeth Wydeville
/ /
Elizabeth Greystoke /
=Thomas Scrope /
/ /
Ralph Scrope married Cecily Plantagenet
The above chart shows that Ralph Scrope and Cecily Plantagenet were
related in the 4th and 3rd degrees of kindred, being both descended
from Joan (or Jane) Beaufort, the legitimated daughter of John of
Gaunt. If so, a dispensation would have been required for this
marriage. I haven't yet checked for such a dispensation, and, if one
knows of its existence, I would appreciate knowing about it.
In summary, it appears that Cecily Plantagenet married sometime in
1485 to Ralph Scrope of Upsall. The marriage was evidently brief and
childless. It was dissolved sometime in 1486. Mr. Helmholz deserves
much credit for the discovery of the divorce record pertaining to this
marriage.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: ***@msn.com
confusion, I've decided to correct the typo's and post a revised
version of my first post. Mea culpa. DR
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
Dear Newsgroup ~
Polydore Vergil stated in his history of the reign of King Richard III
that just prior to overthrowing King Richard III, while still in
France, Henry Tudor [future Henry VII] received rumor that King
Richard III had married his [i.e., Richard's] niece, Cecily
Plantagenet, daughter of King Edward IV, to an "obscure man." An
exact quote from Vergil reads as follows:
"Henry [Tudor] he departyd to Roan [Rouen]. While he taryed here,
and riggyd his navy at the mouth of Seyne, a rumor came unto his eare
that king Richard, his wife being dead, was amyndyd to mary Elizabeth,
his brother Edwardes dowghter, and that he had maryed Cecyly, Edwards
other daughter, unto an obscure man of no reputation." [Reference:
Henry Ellis, Three Books of Polydore Vergil's English History (Camden
Soc. 29) (1844): 215].
Alison Weir makes reference to this passage in Vergil in her book, The
Princes in the Tower (1992), pg. 206, where she states:
" Vergil states that when Henry Tudor, in France, learned what was
afoot, [he] was even more downcast when he heard that Richard
proposed to marry Elizabeth's sister Cecily to an unknown knight so
that Henry should be baulked of yet another Yorkist princess." END OF
QUOTE.
Since Vergil first reported the "rumor" of Cecily Plantagenet's
marriage to an "obscure man," historians and genealogists have largely
ignored Cecily Plantagenet's possible first marriage. Recent
scholarly research indicates, however, that King Richard III did in
fact marry Cecily Plantagenet to someone as alleged by Vergil in his
history. The correction volume to the Complete Peerage series, volume
14 (1998), pg. 626 (sub Welles) states that Cecily Plantagenet married
" .... sometime after June 1482, probably after the accession of
Richard III" to "Ralph Scrope of Upsall, brother of Thomas Lord Scrope
of Upsall. This marriage was dissolved in 1486." END OF QUOTE.
The source cited by C.P. 14 for this information is Rosemary Horrox,
Richard III, A Study in Service, 1989, pg. 295.
This past week I had a chance to examine Rosemary Horrox's work and
she mentions Cecily Plantagenet's marriage to Ralph Scrope in passing
in her book on the page cited by C.P. 14. In a footnote, however,
Horrox in turn cites as her source for this marriage two other works:
R.H. Helmholz, Marriage Litigation in Medieval England (1974): 160,
note 89; and S.B. Chrimes, Henry VII (1972): 3536.
I've since examined both the work by Helmholz and the work by Chrimes
which are cited by Horrox. Chrimes states that all of King Edward
IV's daughters were unmarried in 1485, and, in a footnote, he lists
all of these daughters by name and gives particulars of their lives
and marriages. He includes Cecily in this list but he does not
mention any marriage to Ralph Scrope.
As for Helmholz, on pages 160-161, he includes a long discussion
regarding the lack of surviving divorce reccords in medieval England
for gentry and nobility, which discussion reads as follows:
"The absence of litigants of the upper classes is also worthy of note.
It is fairly certain that the cases where the record gives no
occupation for the parties did not involve people of higher standing.
We can infer this because when they did appear, their status was
specifically identified. Their title was given, they were
specifically styled dominus, or the fact of their lordship of a manor
was recorded. Several examples appears in the Cause papers at York
[see Footnote 89]. In fact, the York records and the
thirteenth-century Canterbury sede vacante material produce almost all
the litigants of the upper classes that we have. In other dioceses,
few or no persons of any rank appear [see Footnote 90]. This may seem
strange. We usually think it was the upper classes which made most
liberal use of marriage law, especially in suits for divorce. The
most likely explanation for their absence from our records is that the
gentry and nobility usually brought their disputes directly to the
bishop, to be heard by him in person or in his court of audience
Also there is reference to marriage cases involving upper class
families in most Episcopal registers. This again suggests that these
people went directly to the bishop. Perhaps greater privacy was thus
available." END OF QUOTE.
Below the discussion above are two footnotes numbered 89 and 90 which
read as follows:
Footnote 89: "York Consistory Act Book, vol. 4, f. 88r (1486) is a
suit between preclara ac nobilis domina domina Cecilia Plantagenet
contra Radulphum Scrope de Upsall." Other examples of upper class
litigants: York C.P. E 12/1 (1323); C.P. E 46 (1340); C.P. E 179
(1390); C.P. E 259 (1368-9); Canterbury Ecc. Suit, no. 203 (1294); no.
219 (1301); no. 297 (1293).
Footnote 90: "An exception is Lichfield B/C/1/1, f. 270r (1469),
where a litigant was styled armiger."
While Mr. Helmholz makes no effort to identify Lady Cecily
Plantagenet, it is obvious that she was in fact King Edward IV's
daughter and that she was married by King Richard III as alleged in
Vergil's history to someone below her station.
C.P. 14 dates Cecily Plantagenet's marriage to Ralph Scrope as having
taken place "sometime after June 1482." The June 1482 date appears to
be derived from the first of three documents found in Foedera, by
Thomas Rymer, as follows:
l. Agreement dated 11 June 1482 between King Edward IV and Alexander
Stewart, Duke of Albany, contains provision that if Alexander can make
himself "clere from all other Women," that within the following year
King Edward shall "gyf my Lady Cecille his Douchter on the said
Alexander" [Reference: T. Rymer, Fdera 12 (1727): 156157].
2. Document dated 4 Aug. 1482 regarding proposed marriage of the
"Ritht Noble Princes Cecile" and James, first born son of King James
III of Scotland [Reference: T. Rymer, Fdera 12 (1727): 161-162].
3. Document dated 12 Oct. 1482, whereby King Edward IV utterly rejects
the proposed marriage between his daughter, "Cicile," and James, son
of James, King of Scotland [Reference: T. Rymer, Fdera 12 (1727):
165-166].
We see that Cecily Plantagenet was definitely unmarried as late as 12
October 1482, when her father, King Edward IV, "utterly" rejected a
proposal of marriage for her and the son of the King of Scotland. As
noted above, Chrimes' states that all of King Edward IV's daughters
(including Cecily) were unmarried in 1485. As such, the marriage of
Cecily Plantagenet and Ralph Scrope must have occurred after 12
October 1482 and probably sometime in 1485, just before Henry Tudor
invaded England and defeated and killed King Richard III as the Battle
of Bosworth 22 August 1485.
As for the identity of Ralph Scrope of Upsall, he is doubtless the
same individual as Ralph Scrope of Masham (or Upsall), 3rd son of
Thomas Scrope, 5th Lord Scrope of Masham (died 1475), by his wife,
Elizabeth de Greystoke. On his brother, Henry's death without issue
in 1512, he succeeded as 9th Lord Scrope of Masham (or Upsall)
[Reference: C.P. 11 (1949): 571-572 (sub Scrope)]. While hardly from
an obscure family, being the younger landless son of a deceased baron,
Ralph Scrope was surely much below Cecily Plantagenet's station.
Curiously, C.P. 14 makes no mention of Ralph Scrope's brief marriage
to Cecily Plantagenet under its listing of corrections and additions
for the Scrope family.
I find that Ralph Scrope and Cecily Plantagenet were blood related as
follows:
John of Gaunt, Duke of Aquitaine and Lancaster
/
Robert Ferrers = (1) Joan Beaufort (2) = Ralph Neville
__________/ _____/
/ /
Elizabeth Ferrers Cecily Neville
=John Greystoke =Richard, Duke of York
/ /
Ralph Greystoke King Edward IV of England
= Elizabeth Fitz Hugh =Elizabeth Wydeville
/ /
Elizabeth Greystoke /
=Thomas Scrope /
/ /
Ralph Scrope married Cecily Plantagenet
The above chart shows that Ralph Scrope and Cecily Plantagenet were
related in the 4th and 3rd degrees of kindred, being both descended
from Joan (or Jane) Beaufort, the legitimated daughter of John of
Gaunt. If so, a dispensation would have been required for this
marriage. I haven't yet checked for such a dispensation, and, if one
knows of its existence, I would appreciate knowing about it.
In summary, it appears that Cecily Plantagenet married sometime in
1485 to Ralph Scrope of Upsall. The marriage was evidently brief and
childless. It was dissolved sometime in 1486. Mr. Helmholz deserves
much credit for the discovery of the divorce record pertaining to this
marriage.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: ***@msn.com