James, Sovereign Count of Vismes, Ponthiu & St Valery +2006

[m***@btinternet.com]

The Daily Telegraph this morning carried a death notice for one

"James Arnold Godfray Martin St Valery, Sovereign Count de Vismes,
Ponthieu et St Valery"

who died on 26 October 2006, aged 90.

Can anyone shed any light on this illustrious gentleman's claims?

MA-R
www.areyoubeingconned.com

[Turenne]

I found a few references to this chap's ancestors which may be of
interest. The third, 'Jersey Medals' gives Ponthieu as well as Vismes.

http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/DevonMisc/Obituaries1841.html
http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/british/hh4aa/hay07.htm *third of
the way down.*
http://www.jersey-medals.net/relofchit18c.html

Richard Lichten

Post by m***@btinternet.com
The Daily Telegraph this morning carried a death notice for one
"James Arnold Godfray Martin St Valery, Sovereign Count de Vismes,
Ponthieu et St Valery"
who died on 26 October 2006, aged 90.
Can anyone shed any light on this illustrious gentleman's claims?
MA-R
www.areyoubeingconned.com

[m***@btinternet.com]

Post by Turenne
I found a few references to this chap's ancestors which may be of
interest. The third, 'Jersey Medals' gives Ponthieu as well as Vismes.
http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/DevonMisc/Obituaries1841.html
http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/british/hh4aa/hay07.htm *third of
the way down.*
http://www.jersey-medals.net/relofchit18c.html
Richard Lichten

Thanks, Richard.

According to a post at rec.heraldry in December 2000 by Anton Sherwood,
there is a reference to the family in Rietsap:

VISMES (DE) (Comtes) -- Gloucestershire. Ec.: aux 1 et 4 d'or à trois

bandes d'azur; au chef du sec., semé de fleurs-de-lis du champ
(Ponthieu);
au 2 d'azur fretté d'or, semé dans les clairevoies de fleurs-de-lis
du
même (St.-Vallery); au 3 d'arg. au chev. de gu., acc. en chef de deux
étoiles d'or et en p. d'un croiss. du même (Vismes). C[imier]: une
aigle ép. de sa. T[enants]: deux anges au nat. D[evise]: J'ASPIRE.
(Branche des DE VISME de Picardie, passée en Angleterre à la
révocation
de l'Edit de Nantes.)


I've had a quick glance in my Kelly's Handbook 1904 but nothing
obvious; I don't have any old BLGs to hand. I did see a suggestion
elsewhere online that the family formerly held a Royal Licence to bear
a foreign title in the UK.

It was the adjective "Sovereign" attached to the Comital title that
particularly caught my eye.

[François R. Velde]

This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.

[François R. Velde]

Post by François R. Velde

Post by m***@btinternet.com
I did see a suggestion
elsewhere online that the family formerly held a Royal Licence to bear
a foreign title in the UK.

Definitely not the case. The name shows up nowhere in the documents at
http://www.heraldica.org/topics/britain/foreigntitles.htm

More precisely, there is a file in the National Archives:

HO 45/8817 : French title of Viscount de Vismes: refusal to allow de Vismes
family to use in UK (1864-1866).

There is also this rather cryptic entry:

HO 44/52 (Domestic correspondence), ff 585-587. Baron Henry de Vismes, Orleans,
regarding the king's sign manual, allowing his father, a British subject, to
claim the French title
--
François Velde
***@nospam.org (replace by "heraldica")
Heraldry Site: http://www.heraldica.org/

[m***@btinternet.com]

Post by François R. Velde
The county of Ponthieu's history is given at
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_des_comtes_de_Ponthieu
(link provided with the usual wikidisclaimer; there are some inaccuracies).
Roughly speaking the county passed by inheritance to the kings of England from
whom it was confiscated in 1336, 1360, and lastly in 1380. Thereafter it was
given as apanage to various people, lastly the Angoulêmes, a legitimated line of
Charles IX. My old La Chesnaye-Desbois says that the county was briefly
(June-Sept 1710) part of the apanage of the duc de Berry. The last owner of the
county was Charles, comte d'Artois, younger brother of Louis XVI, who received
it as part of his apanage in 1773 (indeed, "comte de Ponthieu" was the incognito
he used as ex-king Charles X later in life).
The barony of Vismes was a fief within the county of Ponthieu. It passed from
the family of Cayeux to the family of Monchy in the 14th century, and as late as
Sept. 1665 it was still owned by the Monchy family (François de Monchy, son and
heir of Charles de Monchy, baron of Vismes, gave homage).
The barony of Saint-Valéry-sur-Somme, in the county of Amiens, passed from the
Melun family with Isabelle to the Artois comtes d'Eu, then to the house of
Bourgogne-Nevers along with Eu and followed the county of Nevers through the
houses of La Marck and Gonzaga until the mid-17th c., when it passed (presumably
when the duke of Mantua sold his French possessions in 1659) to the house of
Rouault de Gamaches which still owned it in 1737.
As for the British de Vismes family, there are various notices of births, deaths
and marriages throughout the Times. At some point these people held an even
higher title (e.g. the announcement that "the princess Theobald de Vismes et de
Ponthieu" was delivered of a son at Brussels on 23d Nov 1859, or of the death on
27 Jan 1885, of Eliza Carter, at Cesson, Côtes-du-Nord, "relict of the late
William, prince de Vismes et de Ponthieu", in her 85th year). As for their
http://auriol.free.fr/Perso/Nom_Auriol/geneangl.htm (where Vismes is misspelled
Wismes).
It's difficult to think of the county of Ponthieu as sovereign, or as being
plausibly claimed by anyone today, let alone a Huguenot family in Britain, and I
suspect the recognition of title and pedigree by France would be difficult to
document.

Many thanks for the detailed and informative reply, Francois.

MA-R

[s***@hotmail.com]

There are a couple of online genealogies of this family.

One on Gallica in the 1865 edition of "Annuaire de la noblesse de
France et des maisons souveraines de l'Europe" pages 223-228. There are
one or two bits I don't understand, and one or two bits that look
doubtful.

The other on Google Books in the "Nobilities of Europe" pages 397, 398
and 222. But, as is usual with google books, it wont give page 222,
which contains details of the current Count.

Post by m***@btinternet.com

Post by François R. Velde
The county of Ponthieu's history is given at
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_des_comtes_de_Ponthieu
(link provided with the usual wikidisclaimer; there are some inaccuracies).
Roughly speaking the county passed by inheritance to the kings of England from
whom it was confiscated in 1336, 1360, and lastly in 1380. Thereafter it was
given as apanage to various people, lastly the Angoulêmes, a legitimated line of
Charles IX. My old La Chesnaye-Desbois says that the county was briefly
(June-Sept 1710) part of the apanage of the duc de Berry. The last owner of the
county was Charles, comte d'Artois, younger brother of Louis XVI, who received
it as part of his apanage in 1773 (indeed, "comte de Ponthieu" was the incognito
he used as ex-king Charles X later in life).
The barony of Vismes was a fief within the county of Ponthieu. It passed from
the family of Cayeux to the family of Monchy in the 14th century, and as late as
Sept. 1665 it was still owned by the Monchy family (François de Monchy, son and
heir of Charles de Monchy, baron of Vismes, gave homage).
The barony of Saint-Valéry-sur-Somme, in the county of Amiens, passed from the
Melun family with Isabelle to the Artois comtes d'Eu, then to the house of
Bourgogne-Nevers along with Eu and followed the county of Nevers through the
houses of La Marck and Gonzaga until the mid-17th c., when it passed (presumably
when the duke of Mantua sold his French possessions in 1659) to the house of
Rouault de Gamaches which still owned it in 1737.
As for the British de Vismes family, there are various notices of births, deaths
and marriages throughout the Times. At some point these people held an even
higher title (e.g. the announcement that "the princess Theobald de Vismes et de
Ponthieu" was delivered of a son at Brussels on 23d Nov 1859, or of the death on
27 Jan 1885, of Eliza Carter, at Cesson, Côtes-du-Nord, "relict of the late
William, prince de Vismes et de Ponthieu", in her 85th year). As for their
http://auriol.free.fr/Perso/Nom_Auriol/geneangl.htm (where Vismes is misspelled
Wismes).
It's difficult to think of the county of Ponthieu as sovereign, or as being
plausibly claimed by anyone today, let alone a Huguenot family in Britain, and I
suspect the recognition of title and pedigree by France would be difficult to
document.

Many thanks for the detailed and informative reply, Francois.
MA-R

[m***@btinternet.com]

Post by s***@hotmail.com
There are a couple of online genealogies of this family.
The other on Google Books in the "Nobilities of Europe" pages 397, 398
and 222. But, as is usual with google books, it wont give page 222,
which contains details of the current Count.

Thanks for the tip. Ruvigny, of course, like his descendants today,
used a French title to which he had no right, so perhaps he is not the
best authority on this particular subject.

For what it is worth, this is what he has to say sub Vismes:

"Gerard de Vismes of Normandy, who on the extinction of the senior line
of his family [who were descended in the direct male line from the
Sovereign Counts of Ponthieu and Vismes] had become Count of Vismes,
retired to England on the Revocation of the Edict of Nantes, and his
descendants have since remained there. Elisee William, Count de
Vismes, Col. Coldstream Guards, established the Nobility of his family,
and was recognised as Comte de Vismes by the French Government. He d.
1840 having married 1802 Jane [Scott]"

The descent is traced thus:

1a. William, Count de Vismes, "returned to France, where he was
accorded the style and rank of a Prince as a representative of the
Sovereign Counts of Ponthieu and Vismes". He had a younger son
Angilbert Valery, dsp 1909, and an elder son and heir:

2. Theobald Raoul William, Count de Vismes, 1832-1878; married 1858
Caroline Annie Musgrave (d 1903) and had issue:

3a. Valery Theobald William, Count de Vismes, 1859-1895 (father of
Alexander William Theobald, his heir, and of Count Lewis Robert Auriol
Musgrave de Vismes, born 1893, and two daughters)

3b. Count Raoul Guy Richard de Vismes de Ponthieu, 1864-1901, married
Beatrice Evelyn Hall; father of Richard Gerard de Vismes, born 1897

3c. Countess Elise Caroline Julia Bertha

3d. Countess Bertha Marianne Adelaide Jeanne

1b. Count Henry de Vismes, styled Viscount de Vismes, an Army officer;
19,12,1808 - 2.9.1874; married 1834 Caroline Sarah Sophia Jones (d
1877); parents of six sons and three daughters

1c. Eliza Jane, wife successively of Joseph Kane and the Revd H.
Shelford.

MA-R

[Francois R. Velde]

Post by s***@hotmail.com
There are a couple of online genealogies of this family.
One on Gallica in the 1865 edition of "Annuaire de la noblesse de
France et des maisons souveraines de l'Europe" pages 223-228. There are
one or two bits I don't understand, and one or two bits that look
doubtful.

The material seems to be mostly copied from Burke's Peerage. The de Vismes
family made it into Burke's Commoners (vol. 4, p. 320-322) but then somehow
into Burke's Peerage, at least for a while. I did not find them in 20th c.
editions of the Landed Gentry, though.

A sketch, based on this material, Ruvigny, and various notices in the Times,
can be found here:

www.heraldica.org/topics/britain/vismes.htm

According to Ruvigny, Elisee William received recognition of a title of
count on 1 Sep 1838 from the French government. What exactly that means,
and on what basis, I do not know. There doesn't seem to have been a
ancient noble family "de Vismes" before 1789, although there certainly
was a commoner family of that name in Amiens. One of them was an alderman
of Amiens in the 17th c., his grandson Pierre Martin de Vismes became
a tax farmer and bought the ennobling office of secretaire du Roi in
1757; two of his sons dabbled both in tax collection and in music,
one being Anne Pierre Jacques de Vismes de Valguay who was director
of the Paris opera in 1778, when the arrival of Gluck's music provoked
fistfights among opera fans.

ObRoyalty: in Sofia Coppola's movie Marie Antoinette, which I very much
liked, it was lovely to hear an excerpt of Rameau's Les Boreades, but
it off the mark. The problem was not so much that Les Boreades was in
rehearseal when Rameau died in 1764 and was never performed (Marie
Antoinette arrived in Paris in 1770); more to the point, Gluck's arrival
owes much to the young queen's tastes (she had learned to love his music
in Vienna), and the "revolution" he brought about in French opera can
certainly be credited to her. Having just seen Iphigenie en Tauride
in a stunning production by R. Carsen, I appreciate much more how
revolutionary (and violent!) Gluck's music was, and cannot help but
wonder if the queen did too.

Anyway, the entry in the Annuaire de la noblesse de France seems to
claim a de Vismes as secretaire du Roi related to the English branch,
but the identification cannot be correct. There is only one secretaire
du Roi by that name, and his ancestry does not match with the English
de Vismes, whose progenitor alledgedly came from Normandy in any case.

Post by s***@hotmail.com
The other on Google Books in the "Nobilities of Europe" pages 397, 398
and 222. But, as is usual with google books, it wont give page 222,
which contains details of the current Count.

He also has an entry on them in his 1914 Titled Nobility of Europe.

At this point, it seems that the pretensions of the de Vismes are old
(go back to the 1st half of the 19th c.) but are likely to be completely
mythical.

[m***@btinternet.com]

Post by Francois R. Velde

Post by s***@hotmail.com
There are a couple of online genealogies of this family.
One on Gallica in the 1865 edition of "Annuaire de la noblesse de
France et des maisons souveraines de l'Europe" pages 223-228. There are
one or two bits I don't understand, and one or two bits that look
doubtful.

The material seems to be mostly copied from Burke's Peerage. The de Vismes
family made it into Burke's Commoners (vol. 4, p. 320-322) but then somehow
into Burke's Peerage, at least for a while. I did not find them in 20th c.
editions of the Landed Gentry, though.
A sketch, based on this material, Ruvigny, and various notices in the Times,
www.heraldica.org/topics/britain/vismes.htm

Very interesting, Francois. The Louis Auriol Robert Musgrave de Vismes
who you show as "unattached", ff 1912, is "Lewis, born 1893", brother
of Alexander William Theobald; de Ruvigny calls him "Lewis Robert
Auriol Musgrave de Vismes".

The late "Sovereign Count" died in October aged 90 (i.e. born 1915/6);
it would be interesting to establish his parentage - the Telegraph
listed him with a surname of "Martin St Valery" which doesn't seem to
appear anywhere in these pedigrees: could he also have had a female
descent, I wonder.

MA-R

[Derek Howard]

Francois R. Velde wrote:
<snip>

Post by Francois R. Velde
A sketch, based on this material, Ruvigny, and various notices in the Times,
<www.heraldica.org/topics/britain/vismes.htm>

<snip>

To start with a very minor point but I note that while François has
"Élisée William, comte de Vismes (28 Jun 1758-31 Oct 1840), colonel
Coldstream Guards
~ 1802 Jeanne Salt (d. Jan 25, 1856 Exmouth aged 85), widow of Dr Hall,
sister of M. Salt "

Their names as evidenced in their wills proved in the PCC are :
"Elisha William de Vismes *commonly called* the Comte de Vismes of
Exmouth", Devon, 5 December 1840, (PROB 11/1937) [my emphasis] and
"Jane Comtesse De Vismes, Widow of Exmouth", Devon, 20 February 1856,
(PROB 11/2227).

It is quite an interesting family. I came across the death of one "De
Vismes, Julius Sullivan (Prince)", aged 49, in Stockbridge registration
district in the first quarter of 1876.
He would appear to be the "Juluis Sulivain Le Prince de Vismes et de
Ponthien of Llanuwchllyn" who was convicted 30 Dec 1871 in the
Merionethshire Court of Quarter Sessions, Hilary Quarter 1872 for
trespass in search of game and for assault (Gwynedd Archives,
Meirionnydd Record Office, ZQS/H1872/40).

Also what is the story behind "Defendant: LAERMAUS, Albert de Ponthieu,
Raoul de Vismes Charge: Murder Aiding and abetting Session: 1890 July"?
(NA/PRO CRIM 1/33/5)

Meanwhile Bedfordshire and Luton Archives and Record Service also hold
a glass lantern slide c 1900 of a "Henry Vicomte De Vismes"' tomb, in
the west side of the churchyard St. Peter's Bedford. So many different
titles!

Derek Howard

[Francois R. Velde]

Post by Derek Howard
To start with a very minor point but I note that while François has
"Élisée William, comte de Vismes (28 Jun 1758-31 Oct 1840), colonel
Coldstream Guards
~ 1802 Jeanne Salt (d. Jan 25, 1856 Exmouth aged 85), widow of Dr Hall,
sister of M. Salt "
"Elisha William de Vismes *commonly called* the Comte de Vismes of
Exmouth", Devon, 5 December 1840, (PROB 11/1937) [my emphasis] and
"Jane Comtesse De Vismes, Widow of Exmouth", Devon, 20 February 1856,
(PROB 11/2227).
It is quite an interesting family. I came across the death of one "De
Vismes, Julius Sullivan (Prince)", aged 49, in Stockbridge registration
district in the first quarter of 1876.
He would appear to be the "Juluis Sulivain Le Prince de Vismes et de
Ponthien of Llanuwchllyn" who was convicted 30 Dec 1871 in the
Merionethshire Court of Quarter Sessions, Hilary Quarter 1872 for
trespass in search of game and for assault (Gwynedd Archives,
Meirionnydd Record Office, ZQS/H1872/40).

I think he can be fit into my tree (see Julius, son of Francis and
Harriet Sullivan).

Post by Derek Howard
Also what is the story behind "Defendant: LAERMAUS, Albert de Ponthieu,
Raoul de Vismes Charge: Murder Aiding and abetting Session: 1890 July"?
(NA/PRO CRIM 1/33/5)

The story made the Times. It concerns the death of one Edith Hall, 29,
wife of a barrister, who died apparently of a botched abortion. It was
avered that Raoul (younger son of Theobald Raoul William, aged 26 at the
time) was responsible for her condition, but he successfully claimed that
he had no prior knowledge of the attempt and he was not charged. The doctor,
whose name was Albert Laerman, was Belgian; he was also "received into
society as the viscount de Lerma". He was found guilty of manslaughter
on Aug 2, 1890 and sentenced to 15 years; the jury added that they were
of the opinion that Mr. de Ponthieu should have been charged.

Raoul de Vismes married six years later the daughter of a barrister named
Hall. He had entered the Indian Army from the Northamptonshire Regt in
1883, was promoted captain in 1894. He died of a lung congestion in Madras
in 1901.

Post by Derek Howard
Meanwhile Bedfordshire and Luton Archives and Record Service also hold
a glass lantern slide c 1900 of a "Henry Vicomte De Vismes"' tomb, in
the west side of the churchyard St. Peter's Bedford. So many different
titles!

That would be the younger brother of "prince" William. Two of his sons
(Henry John Hugh and Charles Theobald) served in the Bedforshire Regiment.

[Guy Stair Sainty]

In article <***@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>, Derek Howard
says...

Post by Derek Howard
<snip>

A sketch, based on this material, Ruvigny, and various notices in the Tim=

es,

<www.heraldica.org/topics/britain/vismes.htm>

<snip>
To start with a very minor point but I note that while Fran=E7ois has
"=C9lis=E9e William, comte de Vismes (28 Jun 1758-31 Oct 1840), colonel
Coldstream Guards
~ 1802 Jeanne Salt (d. Jan 25, 1856 Exmouth aged 85), widow of Dr Hall,
sister of M. Salt "
"Elisha William de Vismes *commonly called* the Comte de Vismes of
Exmouth", Devon, 5 December 1840, (PROB 11/1937) [my emphasis] and
"Jane Comtesse De Vismes, Widow of Exmouth", Devon, 20 February 1856,
(PROB 11/2227).

Without suggesting that the claim to this title has any merit, I should point
out that the use of the phrase "commonly called" does not imply that a title is
false. For example, such an expression is customarily used for the holders of
courtesy titles (the eldest sons of peers with such), without in any way
implying there is something illicit about their use.

[m***@btinternet.com]

Post by François R. Velde

Post by m***@btinternet.com
I've had a quick glance in my Kelly's Handbook 1904 but nothing
obvious; I don't have any old BLGs to hand. I did see a suggestion
elsewhere online that the family formerly held a Royal Licence to bear
a foreign title in the UK.

Definitely not the case. The name shows up nowhere in the documents at
http://www.heraldica.org/topics/britain/foreigntitles.htm

Indeed; I had misremembered. There was a post here a few years ago
saying that "de Vismes" was one of the foreign titles listed in the
1938 edition of Burke's Peerage.

[e***@yahoo.fr]

Post by m***@btinternet.com
It was the adjective "Sovereign" attached to the Comital title that
particularly caught my eye.

The adjective was taken up when? In those days one did understand what?
At the time of the HRE instead of titeling oneself "immediate" one
replaced the word by "sovereign". A word then à la mode!

[j***@gmail.com]

This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.

[t***@gmail.com]

Two articles to add:

‘St James's, November 29. The King has been pleased to appoint Lewis de Visme, A M at present His Majesty's Minister Plenipotentiary to the Elector of Bavaria, and Minister to the Dyet of Ratisbon, to be His Majesty's Envoy Extraordinary at the Court of Sweden, in the room of Sir John Goodricke, Bart. who has obtained his Majesty's permissions to resign.’ Police Gazette - Friday 26 November 1773

‘Count de Vismes, whose grandfather, Count Philippe de Vismes, Hugonot [sic] nobleman, sought asylum England, and settled here after the revocation of the edict of Nantes, has obtained a recognition of his hereditary honours from the French government, through the constituted authorities at Paris. This is, we believe, the only instance of a descendant of any of those persecuted Protestant nobles having been able to recover honors which the lapse of years, the loss of family papers, and the destruction of public records, rendered almost hopeless. Count de Vismes held the rank, some years ago, of Colonel in the army, and was highly distinguished with his gallant regiment, the Guards, in the campaign under the Duke of York, in Holland. The family of De Vismes derive from a branch of the Sovereign Counts of Ponthieu, who were of the blood-royal of Frauce, and since their establishment in England, have maintained their distinction. Lewis de Vismes, uncle of the present Couut, was accredited British Ambassador at the Court of Stockholm, during the reign of George the Third.—Sun
Taunton Courier, and Western Advertiser - Wednesday 06 February 1839.

And a Bunbury connection:

Dr. Thomas Robert Bunbury Isaac, son of Simon Bunbury Isaac and Eliza, daughter of Richard Dawson (1762-1807), MP for Co. Monaghan, of Dawson's Grove, lived between Dunkirk in France and Dromore Cottage, Monaghan. Simon was not yet 30 years old when he died at Compiègne in northern France on the 11th June 1822. His son Thomas Robert was just six, having been baptised at the Anglican parish church of Ematris, County Monaghan, on 9th June 1816. The Dawson family home of Dartry, or Dawson's Grove, the home of his mother's family, was located in the same parish, some 2 miles north of Cootehill, so his parents, Simon and Eliza, may have been living at Dartry when Thomas was born. He later moved to Jersey where he contracted tuberculosis and died only 10 months after his marriage to Eliza Labey at St Saviour's Church on 10th August 1854. Eliza married secondly Julius Sulivan de Visme in May 1857. He was the son of Lt. Col. Francis de Visme and Harriet Sullivan his wife, daughter of Sir Benjamin Sullivan, son of Benjamin of Dromeragh, Co: Cork. The following year she became the subject of a portrait by the French artist, Jean-Baptise-Louis Guy, which currently hangs at the Jersey Museum. Eliza Labey died in the parish of St Lawrence, Jersey, on 9th December 1906, being survived by her children, Julius Philip de Visme and Lillian Jane de Visme, wife of Dr Edwin Godfray.