Discussion:
Russian Equal Marriages
(too old to reply)
Alejandro Gomez
2005-03-05 17:17:21 UTC
Permalink
I would like to know if the following marriages would have been
considered equal in the Russian Empire. I know that very much of this
depended on the Sovereign's will, but just to have an idea.


1. Grand Duchess of Russia (HIH) with Prince of Russia (HH or HSH)

2. Prince of Russia with Princess of Battenberg.

3. Grand Duke of Russia with any Princess who was born Catholic.

4. Prince of Russia (HSH) with a Princess from a Russian Serene Family
(HSH)


Thanks.
p***@hotmail.com
2005-03-05 17:32:52 UTC
Permalink
1. Grand Duchess of Russia (HIH) with Prince of Russia (HH or HSH)

YES

2. Prince of Russia with Princess of Battenberg.

Probably NO. Willhelm II would approve such a marriage for his sister,
so I doubt Nicholas II would give approval.

3. Grand Duke of Russia with any Princess who was born Catholic.

YES, with the permission of the Emperor. The issue of this marriage
would not have dynastic rights unless the mother converted to
Orthodoxy. It is very unlikely that such a marriage would ever happen
though as conversion from Catholicism would be view as a non-negotiable
from the stand point of the bride's family.

4. Prince of Russia (HSH) with a Princess from a Russian Serene Family
(HSH)

NEVER
Post by Alejandro Gomez
I would like to know if the following marriages would have been
considered equal in the Russian Empire. I know that very much of this
depended on the Sovereign's will, but just to have an idea.
1. Grand Duchess of Russia (HIH) with Prince of Russia (HH or HSH)
2. Prince of Russia with Princess of Battenberg.
3. Grand Duke of Russia with any Princess who was born Catholic.
4. Prince of Russia (HSH) with a Princess from a Russian Serene Family
(HSH)
Thanks.
p***@hotmail.com
2005-03-05 17:57:38 UTC
Permalink
Please note the ammendment of the above post:

2. Prince of Russia with Princess of Battenberg.

Probably NO. Willhelm II would "NOT" approve such a marriage for his
sister,
so I doubt Nicholas II would give approval.

I left out the word "NOT"

DAP
Graham Truesdale
2005-03-05 18:59:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alejandro Gomez
2. Prince of Russia with Princess of Battenberg.
Probably NO. Willhelm II would "NOT" approve such a marriage for his
sister,
so I doubt Nicholas II would give approval.
I left out the word "NOT"
And remember how Louis of Battenberg was treated at his sister-in-law Alix's
marriage to the Tsar. Seated with the other officers of his ship?
Graham Truesdale
2005-03-05 19:05:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by Alejandro Gomez
I would like to know if the following marriages would have been
considered equal in the Russian Empire. I know that very much of this
depended on the Sovereign's will, but just to have an idea.
3. Grand Duke of Russia with any Princess who was born Catholic.
YES, with the permission of the Emperor. The issue of this marriage
would not have dynastic rights unless the mother converted to
Orthodoxy. It is very unlikely that such a marriage would ever happen
though as conversion from Catholicism would be view as a non-negotiable
from the stand point of the bride's family.
Weren't RC-Orthodox marriages less rare than RC-Protestant ones? Thus
making the Orthodox something of a link between the Protestant and RC
'royal marriage markets'?
p***@hotmail.com
2005-03-05 20:19:02 UTC
Permalink
The marriages were Orthodox-Orthodox and Orthodox-Luthern. I cannot
recall an example of an Orthodox-Catholic marriage in the Russian
Imperial House.

DAP
j***@yahoo.com
2005-03-05 20:37:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@hotmail.com
The marriages were Orthodox-Orthodox and Orthodox-Luthern. I cannot
recall an example of an Orthodox-Catholic marriage in the Russian
Imperial House.
DAP
Yes, there was -- the 1799 marriage of Grand Duchess Alexandra Pavlovna
(daughter of Czar Paul) to Archduke Joseph of Austria-Hungary.

It seems that when it comes to mixed marriages involving Catholics,
most attention seems to be focused on examples where the BRIDE is
Catholic.
p***@hotmail.com
2005-03-06 01:44:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@yahoo.com
Yes, there was -- the 1799 marriage of Grand Duchess Alexandra
Pavlovna
Post by j***@yahoo.com
(daughter of Czar Paul) to Archduke Joseph of Austria-Hungary.
It seems that when it comes to mixed marriages involving Catholics,
most attention seems to be focused on examples where the BRIDE is
Catholic.
That is because of the Fundemental Laws of the Imperial House of Russia
required that a bride convert to Orthodoxy in order for her children to
have succession rights. This is why the status of the children of GD
Vladimir Aleksandrovich and Ducky are often scrutinised as having
succession rights. Ducky converted to Orthodoxy after her children were
born.

DAP
Lisa Davidson
2005-03-06 02:20:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@yahoo.com
Post by j***@yahoo.com
Yes, there was -- the 1799 marriage of Grand Duchess Alexandra
Pavlovna
Post by j***@yahoo.com
(daughter of Czar Paul) to Archduke Joseph of Austria-Hungary.
It seems that when it comes to mixed marriages involving Catholics,
most attention seems to be focused on examples where the BRIDE is
Catholic.
That is because of the Fundemental Laws of the Imperial House of Russia
required that a bride convert to Orthodoxy in order for her children to
have succession rights. This is why the status of the children of GD
Vladimir Aleksandrovich and Ducky are often scrutinised as having
succession rights. Ducky converted to Orthodoxy after her children were
born.
DAP
Ducky was certainly Orthodox before the birth of her only son, Vladimir
Kirilovich. Thus, his children would qualify for stickers about this point.
Gary Holtzman
2005-03-06 03:31:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lisa Davidson
Post by p***@hotmail.com
That is because of the Fundemental Laws of the Imperial House of Russia
required that a bride convert to Orthodoxy in order for her children to
have succession rights. This is why the status of the children of GD
Vladimir Aleksandrovich and Ducky are often scrutinised as having
succession rights. Ducky converted to Orthodoxy after her children were
born.
Ducky was certainly Orthodox before the birth of her only son, Vladimir
Kirilovich. Thus, his children would qualify for stickers about this point.
But wasn't Kirill's mother not yet Orthodox at the time of his birth?
--
Gary Holtzman

-------------------- http://NewsReader.Com/ --------------------
Dimitry Macedonsky
2005-03-06 11:13:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary Holtzman
Post by p***@hotmail.com
That is because of the Fundemental Laws of the Imperial House of Russia
required that a bride convert to Orthodoxy in order for her children to
have succession rights. This is why the status of the children of GD
Vladimir Aleksandrovich and Ducky are often scrutinised as having
succession rights. Ducky converted to Orthodoxy after her children were
born.
But wasn't Kirill's mother not yet Orthodox at the time of his birth?
One more time? Yes, Maria Pavlovna was not Orthodox until 1908. And
Alexander II in addition to succession laws issued Family Act for a case if
succession came to this branch. Signed by Alexander, Caesarevich Alexander
and Vladimir at St Petersburg on August 16/28, 1874. Main idea is that
*only* problem is having non-Orthodox spouse.
--
Dimitry Macedonsky
St. Petersburg, Russia
http://macedonsky.narod.ru/english.html
Graham Truesdale
2005-03-06 13:18:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dimitry Macedonsky
Post by Gary Holtzman
Post by Lisa Davidson
Post by p***@hotmail.com
That is because of the Fundemental Laws of the Imperial House of Russia
required that a bride convert to Orthodoxy in order for her children to
have succession rights. This is why the status of the children of GD
Vladimir Aleksandrovich and Ducky are often scrutinised as having
succession rights. Ducky converted to Orthodoxy after her children were
born.
Ducky was certainly Orthodox before the birth of her only son, Vladimir
Kirilovich. Thus, his children would qualify for stickers about this point.
But wasn't Kirill's mother not yet Orthodox at the time of his birth?
One more time? Yes, Maria Pavlovna was not Orthodox until 1908. And
Alexander II in addition to succession laws issued Family Act for a case
if succession came to this branch. Signed by Alexander, Caesarevich
Alexander and Vladimir at St Petersburg on August 16/28, 1874. Main idea
is that *only* problem is having non-Orthodox spouse.
I am a bit confused by the above.
As far as I can see, Tsar Alexander II (died 1881) had 2 relevant sons -
Alexander III and Vladimir (both Aleksandrovich, of course). Vladimir
married
Marie of Mecklenburg-Schwerin in 1874, so presumably this marriage prompted
the Family Act to which Dimitry refers. Vladimir and Marie had (inter alia)
Kirill
Vladimirovich. AFAIK it was he who married Victoria Melita (Ducky) in
1905,
and they had (inter alia) Vladimir Kirillovich (grandson of Vladimir
Aleksandrovich).
Vladimir Aleksandrovich was Ducky's father-in-law, not her husband.
Dimitry Macedonsky
2005-03-06 17:26:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graham Truesdale
This is why the status of the children of GD Vladimir
Aleksandrovich and Ducky are often scrutinised as having
succession rights. Ducky converted to Orthodoxy after her children
were born.
I am a bit confused by the above.
Vladimir Aleksandrovich was Ducky's father-in-law, not her husband.
Yes, although you quote three other messages to disagree with fourth.
Post by Graham Truesdale
This is why the status of the children of GD Vladimir Aleksandrovich
[and GDss Maria Pavlovna Sr as like as children of GD Cyril Vladimirovich]
and Ducky are often scrutinised as having succession rights.
GD Vladimir Aleksandrovich married Lutheran Maria Pavlovna and sired five
children before she converted. It is interesting to note that she became
known as Sr soon after her conversion. All this children had succession
rights in virtue of Russian Succession Laws and Family Act of 1874.

First of their children married Lutheran Victoria Melita but *all* their
three children were born *after* she converted. First of this children was
born out of wedlock but was later legitimated.
--
Dimitry Macedonsky
St. Petersburg, Russia
http://macedonsky.narod.ru/english.html
j***@yahoo.com
2005-03-06 18:01:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dimitry Macedonsky
First of their children married Lutheran Victoria Melita but *all* their
three children were born *after* she converted. First of this
children was
Post by Dimitry Macedonsky
born out of wedlock but was later legitimated.
Minor correction: Victoria Melita was raised as an ANGLICAN -- like her
father (Prince Alfred, the Duke of Edinburgh).
Dimitry Macedonsky
2005-03-06 19:49:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@yahoo.com
Minor correction: Victoria Melita was raised as an ANGLICAN -- like her
father (Prince Alfred, the Duke of Edinburgh).
I am sure she was raised as an Anglican. But later her father became
sovereign of Lutheran Duchy and she married Lutheran Grand Duke. In her 1905
marriage and 1907 conversion documents she mentioned Evangelical confession.
--
Dimitry Macedonsky
St. Petersburg, Russia
http://macedonsky.narod.ru/english.html
Klaus Meyer-Cabri van Amelrode
2005-03-07 07:31:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary Holtzman
Post by Lisa Davidson
Post by p***@hotmail.com
That is because of the Fundemental Laws of the Imperial House of Russia
required that a bride convert to Orthodoxy in order for her children to
have succession rights. This is why the status of the children of GD
Vladimir Aleksandrovich and Ducky are often scrutinised as having
succession rights. Ducky converted to Orthodoxy after her children were
born.
Ducky was certainly Orthodox before the birth of her only son, Vladimir
Kirilovich. Thus, his children would qualify for stickers about this point.
But wasn't Kirill's mother not yet Orthodox at the time of his birth?
I hope this will help to clarify the matter:

Since the times of Peter the Great the succession to the Russian
throne had not been a very stable one. Several coup d' etats had
undermined aspects of legitimacy in favor of mere power. Catherine I
and Catherine II the Great had no blood claim whatsoever to the
throne, except that they were the consorts of Peter the Great and
Peter III respectively. Catherine II ousted her husband and put aside
her own son's rights during her lifetime. Insofar it does not come as
a surprise that this son, Paul I, enacted on April 4 th, 1797 the
so-called Pauline Laws of Succession. The intention behind this order
of succession was that law itself determines the succession and that
there will be not the slightest doubt as to the successor. The Pauline
Laws were amended by a Manifesto of Nicolas I, dating August 22nd,
1826, the family statute of Alexander III (July 2nd, 1886), the
Fundamental Laws of the Empire (April 25, 1906) and the Imperial Ukase
No. 1289 of August 8 th, 1911 by Emperor Nicholas II. These constitute
the norms and regulations for the succession to the Imperial throne by
the end of the Romanov's rule over Russia.

According to these rules only the descendants of Czar Michael I from
the House of Romanov were entitled to succeed to the Russian throne
(Article 25 Fundamental Laws). The Czar and his spouse had to be of
Orthodox faith. The succession is determined by the rules of
primogeniture (Article 26 of the Fundamental Laws). Male and female
dynasts are entitled to succeed; female members of the Imperial House
however only in the case that there is no male dynast whatsoever
(Articles 26 to 29). In such a case of female succession the rules of
primogeniture apply and the succession lies with the oldest female
dynast of the last male Czar. On the demise of an Emperor, his heir
accedes to the throne by virtue of the law; his accession counts from
the demise of his predecessor (Article 53).

Marriages of members of the Imperial Family need the consent of the
Emperor (Article 183 Pauline Law). With the Emperor's consent the
members of the family are allowed to marry spouses who are not member
of the Orthodox Church (Article 184 Pauline Law). Male dynast in the
line of succession however can only marry if their future consorts
adhere to the orthodox faith before marriage (Article 185 Pauline
Laws). Only marriages with spouses of corresponding rank (ebenbuertig
or standesgemaess) are allowed (Article 188). Corresponding rank
derives from the membership to a Royal or Sovereign House (Article 36
Fundamental laws). Only those born of such a "ebenbuertigen" marriage
are Members of the Imperial Family with the right to the succession.
(Article 126) Those born of not "standegemaeesse" marriage have no
right to the succession. (Article 36) hey are not dynasts and not
members of the Imperial Family. Entering a child's name on the order
of the Emperor (Article 137) into the Genealogical Book of the
Imperial Family serves as proof of the membership in the Imperial
House (Article 142). The Imperial Ukase of 1911 stated that no grand
duke or grand duchess might contract a marriage with a person of
unequal birth, that is, not belonging to a royal or sovereign house.
This is interpreted by some that the Ukase allows marriages of Princes
and Princesses of Russia with persons of good standing, who do not
fulfill the requirements of corresponding rank.

One of the argument against Grand Duke Cyril's rights to the headship
of the Imperial House (and therefore against his son and
granddaughter) is that his mother Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna (1854 -
1920) was not a member of the Orthodox Church at the time of his
birth. This seems to violate Article 185 of the Pauline Laws. This
provision demands that male dynast in the line of succession can only
marry if their non-orthodox future consorts adhere to the orthodox
faith before marriage. There is no dispute that Maria Pavlovna, born a
Duchess of Mecklenburg-Schwerin, became orthodox only in 1908. On that
occasion Nicholas II conferred on her the title of "Orthodox Grand
Duchess". On a first glance that there seems to be a case against the
Grand Duke.

But a closer examination does not sustain this. Article 185 is not
understood that all male dynasts are obliged to marry only orthodox
princesses. The provision was interpreted that only the heirs to the
throne and the next male or the next two males in the line of
succession have to comply with the requirement of Article 185. When
Grand Duke Vladimir Alexandrovitch married Maria Pavlovna in 1874 and
when his oldest son Cyril was born in 1876 he was not one of those
direct heirs to the throne. In 1874 his brother, the future Alexander
III, and his sons, the future Nicolas II and his brother Grand Duke
George were next in line. Therefore article 185 did not apply. That
this was indeed the understanding of Article 185 prove several grand
ducal marriages. In 1884 Grand Duke Sergei Alexandrovitch (1857-1905),
a younger brother to Alexander III and Grand Duke Vladimir, married
Princess Elisabeth of Hesse and by Rhine, the elder sister of the last
Empress. She converted only in 1891. Later after her husband
assassination in 1905 she founded an Orthodox order and was even
canonized. In the same year the Grand Duke Constantine
Constantinovitch married Princess Elisabeth of Saxe-Altenburg. She
never converted, but neither her position as a Grand Duchess or the
position of her children as Princes/Princess of Russia in the line of
succession were ever called into question. Further, it should be noted
that Alexander II authorized the marriage of his son without demanding
a conversion and granted Maria the styles and titles of H.I.H Grand
Duchess of Russia. The children born out of this marriage were never
denied their dynastic position.
Guy Stair Sainty
2005-03-06 10:39:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@yahoo.com
Post by j***@yahoo.com
Yes, there was -- the 1799 marriage of Grand Duchess Alexandra
Pavlovna
Post by j***@yahoo.com
(daughter of Czar Paul) to Archduke Joseph of Austria-Hungary.
It seems that when it comes to mixed marriages involving Catholics,
most attention seems to be focused on examples where the BRIDE is
Catholic.
That is because of the Fundemental Laws of the Imperial House of Russia
required that a bride convert to Orthodoxy in order for her children to
have succession rights. This is why the status of the children of GD
Vladimir Aleksandrovich and Ducky are often scrutinised as having
succession rights. Ducky converted to Orthodoxy after her children were
born.
Not to have successino rights, but to succeed; hence the Emperors tolerated
marriages with non-Orthodox princesses, but only required conversion when
the GD concerned was very close to the succession - several consorts of
grand dukes never converted but yet produced issue whose dynastic rights were
unaffected by their mother's faith.
--
Guy Stair Sainty
www.chivalricorders.org/index3.htm
m***@gmail.com
2005-03-06 19:46:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alejandro Gomez
3. Grand Duke of Russia with any Princess who was born Catholic.
To answer everyone's question:

If the Grand Duke was the Czarevitch, then it would be considered
morganatic. It would also be considered morganatic if the Grand Duke
was in a high position on the succession line and the Emperor
designated that they have to marry a Russian Orthodox woman.

This rule is so that people who have a relatively low place on the
succession line could marry a continental Princess who may not want to
give up their current faith, and still have titles for their children.

However, the claim of Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna is contested
because of your #4, since she was the daughter of Grand Duke Vladimir
Cyrillovitch and a princess from a Russian Illustrious Family, HIllH
Princess Leonida Georgievna Bagration-Moukhransky. This marriage is
considered morganatic by many.
Alejandro Gomez
2005-03-08 01:54:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@gmail.com
If the Grand Duke was the Czarevitch, then it would be considered
morganatic.
Maybe it would be not approved, but certainly an equal marriage, as
long as the bride were from a Royal or Ruling Family. I thought
morganatic marriages were unequal and it didn't have nothing to do
with religion, but I could be wrong.
Post by m***@gmail.com
However, the claim of Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna is contested
because of your #4, since she was the daughter of Grand Duke Vladimir
Cyrillovitch and a princess from a Russian Illustrious Family, HIllH
Princess Leonida Georgievna Bagration-Moukhransky. This marriage is
considered morganatic by many.
I'm not an expert on this subject, but from what I've read, the
Russian Fundamental Law says that it depends on the Sovereign Emperor
to decide if the marriage is or isn't equal. And at that time, HIH
Grand Duke Cyril Vladimirovich approved it as an equal marriage.
Also Grand Duke Constantine Constantinovich wrote in his diary that
his daughter's marriage, Princess Tatiana, to a Prince
Bagration-Moukhransky was at last, considered equal. Please let me
know if I'm wrong and excuse me about my english and spelling.
Klaus Meyer-Cabri van Amelrode
2005-03-08 13:17:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alejandro Gomez
Post by m***@gmail.com
If the Grand Duke was the Czarevitch, then it would be considered
morganatic.
Maybe it would be not approved, but certainly an equal marriage, as
long as the bride were from a Royal or Ruling Family. I thought
morganatic marriages were unequal and it didn't have nothing to do
with religion, but I could be wrong.
Post by m***@gmail.com
However, the claim of Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna is contested
because of your #4, since she was the daughter of Grand Duke Vladimir
Cyrillovitch and a princess from a Russian Illustrious Family, HIllH
Princess Leonida Georgievna Bagration-Moukhransky. This marriage is
considered morganatic by many.
I'm not an expert on this subject, but from what I've read, the
Russian Fundamental Law says that it depends on the Sovereign Emperor
to decide if the marriage is or isn't equal. And at that time, HIH
Grand Duke Cyril Vladimirovich approved it as an equal marriage.
Also Grand Duke Constantine Constantinovich wrote in his diary that
his daughter's marriage, Princess Tatiana, to a Prince
Bagration-Moukhransky was at last, considered equal. Please let me
know if I'm wrong and excuse me about my english and spelling.
You are right, that it is the Emperor's prerogative. You are wrong in
one aspect: the marriage of Grand Duke Wladimir was not approved by
Grand Du´ke Cyril as Cyril had died in 1938 and Wlamidir was at that
time of his marriage in 1948 already head of the Imperial House.

The Emperor ruled the Imperial Family as autocratic and supreme as the
country. All the members of the Imperial Family had to be committed to
the Emperor with complete respect, obedience and allegiance (Article
219 Fundamental Laws). It was his and only his decision whether to
grant or withhold his authorization for a marriage (see Article 7 of
the Ukase of 1911). No judicial recourse was provided for. For
whatever reason the Emperor saw fit he could withhold his consent.
Marriages of members of the Imperial House were not mere private
affaires, but affaires of state and the Emperor had to have complete
control of that kind of marriage policy. The rules governing Imperial
marriage there set forth under which circumstances the members of the
Imperial House could ask the Emperor for his consent. But still the
Emperor could withhold his consent even if the spouse fulfilled all
requirements for example if the marriage was political not opportune
or the Emperor viewed this persona as not acceptable for more personal
reasons. Only marriages having received the Emperor's authorization
were dynastic valid and trigged the rights to the succession.

It is interesting to notice that these rules regulate the marriages of
members of the Imperial Family, but there are no direct rules
regulating the marriage of the Emperor himself. It seems that it was
rather envisioned that the Emperor would come to the throne having
already married when being still the Heir to the Throne. During the
Imperial time only twice an Emperor married. In 1880 Alexander II
married after the death of his Empress Maria, born Princess of Hesse
and by Rhine, his long-standing mistress Princess Catherine
Dolgurukaya This marriage was a morganatic marriage and Alexander II
created her Princess Jurievskaya. Just after his accession Nicolas II
married Princess Alix of Hesse and by Rhine, who had converted to the
orthodox faith prior to the marriage and received on that occasion the
title of Grand Duchess Alexandra Feodorovna. However, Alexander III
had approved this marriage before his untimely death .None of these
marriages can therefore serve as a precedent what kind of rules
applies to the marriage of Emperor himself. It seems however that to
me logic that the Czar himself conforms to the rules set forth in the
rules and laws governing the succession. Otherwise it would be hard
for other members to accept his authority. Nevertheless because of the
supreme power over the Imperial Family it is the Emperor's sole and
only decision to decide whether his very own marriage fulfills all
requirements and is political convenient. It is not for the members of
the Family to question the Imperial decision and therefore calling
into questions the succession. This lies in the logic of the supreme
authority the Emperor holds with regards to the Imperial House.

The marriage of Princess Tatiana is indeed one of the arguments that
the marriage was of equal standing:In the diaries of Grand Duke
Constantine Contantinovitch, father of the Princess Tatiana, is found
a passage that the Emperor told him that "he would never look upon her
(Tatiana's) marriage to a Bagration as morganatic, because this House
…, is descended from a once ruling dynasty". Of great interest
however is the marriage of the Infanta Maria de Las Mercedes of Spain
(1911-1953) to Prince Irakli Bragration-Mukhransky in 1946 Before the
marriage could take place Infant Don Ferdinand, the Infanta’s
father asked Grand Duke Vladimir whether the groom was of
corresponding rank to that of his daughter. The Family Laws of the
Spanish Bourbons allowed only marriages of equal standing; otherwise
the Infant would have been required to relinquish her rights to the
succession. After careful investigation and consultation, especially
with Grand Duke Andrew Vladimirovitch, the Grand Duke stated in a
letter to the Infant that the Bagration were of equal rank and the
groom entitled to the style of His Royal Highness. The letter reads as
follows:Act of the Head of the Imperial House, 5th December 1946:

His Royal Highness the Infante don Ferdinand…, when his daughter
the Infanta Maria Mercedes was about to contract a marriage with
Prince Irakly Bagration of Moukhrani, asked me whether…I could
consider the proposed marriage to be an equal one. My reply, which was
conveyed to the Infante through the intermediary of the Spanish
minister in Berne, the Conde de Bailen, was in the affirmative, in as
much as, after prolonged and diligent study of the history of Georgia
and the Georgian question, and after consulting my uncle, His Imperial
Highness Grand Duke Andrew, brother of my late Father,…I
consider it right and proper to recognise the royal status of the
senior branch of the Bagration family, as well as the right of the
members to bear the title of Prince of Georgia and the style of Royal
Highness. The present head of the family is Prince George. If Almighty
God, in His Mercy, allows the rebirth of our great empire, I consider
it right that the Georgian language should be restored for use in the
internal administration of Georgia and in her educational
establishments. The Russian language should be obligatory for general
relations within the Empire. (Signed) Wladimir.
The Infanta was not asked to renounce her rights in the succession.
Brook’s statement that if the Bagration are of corresponding
rank then families as the Princes Galitzine are as well because they
are of royal descent misjudges the notion of equal rank. Equal rank
derives from the notion of being member of a royal or sovereign house.
It does not derive from “having same royal blood in one’s
veins”. Royal House are Sovereign Houses, but not every
Sovereign Houses are royal as the Princes of Monaco or Liechtenstein
prove. The Galitzine might have royal blood in their veins, but they
were never a sovereign house. Once the status of sovereignty was
acquired it could not be lost. The former sovereign houses of the Holy
Roman Empire that lost their sovereignty and were mediatisied were
still regarded as of equal standing. When the rulers of Hannover,
France, Naples, Tuscany, Parma, Brazil, Portugal or the Balkan
monarchies were ousted, their dynasties did not loose the standing of
being of equal rank. Marlene Eilers rights compares the statute of the
former Georgian Royal Family with those former sovereign families
mediatised after the collapse of the Holy Roman Empire or during the
reunification of Germany and Italy.
In should be further taken into consideration that Vladimir
Cyrillovitch married the Princess when he was already Head of the
Imperial Family. As stated above, the rules did not provide directly
for marriages of the Head of the Family. However, it could be expected
and would lie within the logic and rational of these provisions that
the Head of the Family complies with the rules. But as already pointed
out, it is the Head of the Family who determines whether the rules are
observed or not. That lies in the very nature of the autocratic powers
the Emperor/Head of the Family holds. That ensured furthermore a
secure succession. It is not to the members of the Family to question
the Head’s decision. As seen, Nicholas II withhold his consent
to the marriage of Cyril and Victoria Melita for the only reason that
Victoria Melita had offended the Empress by divorcing the
Empress’s brother and later rversed his decision. As hard as
this may seen, but this lies in the nature of the supreme and
autocratic power the Head of the Family commands over the Imperial
Clan. Therefore, if Vladimir Cyrillovitch was satisfied that his
marriage would fulfill the requirement of corresponding rank, this
decision had to be accepted.
Guy Stair Sainty
2005-03-10 09:59:32 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@posting.google.com>, Klaus Meyer-Cabri
van Amelrode says...
{snip]
Post by Klaus Meyer-Cabri van Amelrode
His Royal Highness the Infante don Ferdinand&#8230;, when his daughter
the Infanta Maria Mercedes was about to contract a marriage with
Prince Irakly Bagration of Moukhrani, asked me whether&#8230;I could
consider the proposed marriage to be an equal one. My reply, which was
conveyed to the Infante through the intermediary of the Spanish
minister in Berne, the Conde de Bailen, was in the affirmative, in as
much as, after prolonged and diligent study of the history of Georgia
and the Georgian question, and after consulting my uncle, His Imperial
Highness Grand Duke Andrew, brother of my late Father,&#8230;I
consider it right and proper to recognise the royal status of the
senior branch of the Bagration family, as well as the right of the
members to bear the title of Prince of Georgia and the style of Royal
Highness. The present head of the family is Prince George. If Almighty
God, in His Mercy, allows the rebirth of our great empire, I consider
it right that the Georgian language should be restored for use in the
internal administration of Georgia and in her educational
establishments. The Russian language should be obligatory for general
relations within the Empire. (Signed) Wladimir.
The Infanta was not asked to renounce her rights in the succession.
While I entirely agree with your conclusions regarding the status of the
Bagrations and the powers of the Emperor or Head of the Imperial House,
I must correct you slightly here. It is indeed true that the Infante
D. Fernando wrote as you describe, but he was *not* head of the Royal
House of Spain and the decision as to whether the marriage met with the
requirements of the pragmatic decree of 1776 was not in the hands of the
Infante D. Fernando, but the Vount of Barcelona. He determined that the
marriage was not an equal marriage and did not consider the children of
this marriage to have dynastic rights in Spain. Neither did he recognize
the title of royal highness for the husband of the Infanta.

I personally believe that the Count of Barcelona should have taken greater
note of the position taken by Grand Duke Wladimir, but he chose not to
do so.
--
Guy Stair Sainty
www.chivalricorders.org/index3.htm
m***@gmail.com
2005-03-10 21:22:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Klaus Meyer-Cabri van Amelrode
Post by Alejandro Gomez
Post by m***@gmail.com
If the Grand Duke was the Czarevitch, then it would be considered
morganatic.
Maybe it would be not approved, but certainly an equal marriage, as
long as the bride were from a Royal or Ruling Family. I thought
morganatic marriages were unequal and it didn't have nothing to do
with religion, but I could be wrong.
Post by m***@gmail.com
However, the claim of Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna is
contested
Post by Klaus Meyer-Cabri van Amelrode
Post by Alejandro Gomez
Post by m***@gmail.com
because of your #4, since she was the daughter of Grand Duke Vladimir
Cyrillovitch and a princess from a Russian Illustrious Family, HIllH
Princess Leonida Georgievna Bagration-Moukhransky. This marriage is
considered morganatic by many.
I'm not an expert on this subject, but from what I've read, the
Russian Fundamental Law says that it depends on the Sovereign Emperor
to decide if the marriage is or isn't equal. And at that time, HIH
Grand Duke Cyril Vladimirovich approved it as an equal marriage.
Also Grand Duke Constantine Constantinovich wrote in his diary that
his daughter's marriage, Princess Tatiana, to a Prince
Bagration-Moukhransky was at last, considered equal. Please let me
know if I'm wrong and excuse me about my english and spelling.
You are right, that it is the Emperor's prerogative. You are wrong in
one aspect: the marriage of Grand Duke Wladimir was not approved by
Grand Du´ke Cyril as Cyril had died in 1938 and Wlamidir was at that
time of his marriage in 1948 already head of the Imperial House.
The Emperor ruled the Imperial Family as autocratic and supreme as the
country. All the members of the Imperial Family had to be committed to
the Emperor with complete respect, obedience and allegiance (Article
219 Fundamental Laws). It was his and only his decision whether to
grant or withhold his authorization for a marriage (see Article 7 of
the Ukase of 1911). No judicial recourse was provided for. For
whatever reason the Emperor saw fit he could withhold his consent.
Marriages of members of the Imperial House were not mere private
affaires, but affaires of state and the Emperor had to have complete
control of that kind of marriage policy. The rules governing Imperial
marriage there set forth under which circumstances the members of the
Imperial House could ask the Emperor for his consent. But still the
Emperor could withhold his consent even if the spouse fulfilled all
requirements for example if the marriage was political not opportune
or the Emperor viewed this persona as not acceptable for more
personal
Post by Klaus Meyer-Cabri van Amelrode
reasons. Only marriages having received the Emperor's authorization
were dynastic valid and trigged the rights to the succession.
It is interesting to notice that these rules regulate the marriages of
members of the Imperial Family, but there are no direct rules
regulating the marriage of the Emperor himself. It seems that it was
rather envisioned that the Emperor would come to the throne having
already married when being still the Heir to the Throne. During the
Imperial time only twice an Emperor married. In 1880 Alexander II
married after the death of his Empress Maria, born Princess of Hesse
and by Rhine, his long-standing mistress Princess Catherine
Dolgurukaya This marriage was a morganatic marriage and Alexander II
created her Princess Jurievskaya. Just after his accession Nicolas II
married Princess Alix of Hesse and by Rhine, who had converted to the
orthodox faith prior to the marriage and received on that occasion the
title of Grand Duchess Alexandra Feodorovna. However, Alexander III
had approved this marriage before his untimely death .None of these
marriages can therefore serve as a precedent what kind of rules
applies to the marriage of Emperor himself. It seems however that to
me logic that the Czar himself conforms to the rules set forth in the
rules and laws governing the succession. Otherwise it would be hard
for other members to accept his authority. Nevertheless because of the
supreme power over the Imperial Family it is the Emperor's sole and
only decision to decide whether his very own marriage fulfills all
requirements and is political convenient. It is not for the members of
the Family to question the Imperial decision and therefore calling
into questions the succession. This lies in the logic of the supreme
authority the Emperor holds with regards to the Imperial House.
The marriage of Princess Tatiana is indeed one of the arguments that
the marriage was of equal standing:In the diaries of Grand Duke
Constantine Contantinovitch, father of the Princess Tatiana, is found
a passage that the Emperor told him that "he would never look upon her
(Tatiana's) marriage to a Bagration as morganatic, because this House
&#8230;, is descended from a once ruling dynasty". Of great interest
however is the marriage of the Infanta Maria de Las Mercedes of Spain
(1911-1953) to Prince Irakli Bragration-Mukhransky in 1946 Before the
marriage could take place Infant Don Ferdinand, the Infanta&#8217;s
father asked Grand Duke Vladimir whether the groom was of
corresponding rank to that of his daughter. The Family Laws of the
Spanish Bourbons allowed only marriages of equal standing; otherwise
the Infant would have been required to relinquish her rights to the
succession. After careful investigation and consultation, especially
with Grand Duke Andrew Vladimirovitch, the Grand Duke stated in a
letter to the Infant that the Bagration were of equal rank and the
groom entitled to the style of His Royal Highness. The letter reads as
His Royal Highness the Infante don Ferdinand&#8230;, when his
daughter
Post by Klaus Meyer-Cabri van Amelrode
the Infanta Maria Mercedes was about to contract a marriage with
Prince Irakly Bagration of Moukhrani, asked me whether&#8230;I could
consider the proposed marriage to be an equal one. My reply, which was
conveyed to the Infante through the intermediary of the Spanish
minister in Berne, the Conde de Bailen, was in the affirmative, in as
much as, after prolonged and diligent study of the history of Georgia
and the Georgian question, and after consulting my uncle, His
Imperial
Post by Klaus Meyer-Cabri van Amelrode
Highness Grand Duke Andrew, brother of my late Father,&#8230;I
consider it right and proper to recognise the royal status of the
senior branch of the Bagration family, as well as the right of the
members to bear the title of Prince of Georgia and the style of Royal
Highness. The present head of the family is Prince George. If
Almighty
Post by Klaus Meyer-Cabri van Amelrode
God, in His Mercy, allows the rebirth of our great empire, I consider
it right that the Georgian language should be restored for use in the
internal administration of Georgia and in her educational
establishments. The Russian language should be obligatory for general
relations within the Empire. (Signed) Wladimir.
The Infanta was not asked to renounce her rights in the succession.
Brook&#8217;s statement that if the Bagration are of corresponding
rank then families as the Princes Galitzine are as well because they
are of royal descent misjudges the notion of equal rank. Equal rank
derives from the notion of being member of a royal or sovereign house.
It does not derive from &#8220;having same royal blood in one&#8217;s
veins&#8221;. Royal House are Sovereign Houses, but not every
Sovereign Houses are royal as the Princes of Monaco or Liechtenstein
prove. The Galitzine might have royal blood in their veins, but they
were never a sovereign house. Once the status of sovereignty was
acquired it could not be lost. The former sovereign houses of the Holy
Roman Empire that lost their sovereignty and were mediatisied were
still regarded as of equal standing. When the rulers of Hannover,
France, Naples, Tuscany, Parma, Brazil, Portugal or the Balkan
monarchies were ousted, their dynasties did not loose the standing of
being of equal rank. Marlene Eilers rights compares the statute of the
former Georgian Royal Family with those former sovereign families
mediatised after the collapse of the Holy Roman Empire or during the
reunification of Germany and Italy.
In should be further taken into consideration that Vladimir
Cyrillovitch married the Princess when he was already Head of the
Imperial Family. As stated above, the rules did not provide directly
for marriages of the Head of the Family. However, it could be
expected
Post by Klaus Meyer-Cabri van Amelrode
and would lie within the logic and rational of these provisions that
the Head of the Family complies with the rules. But as already
pointed
Post by Klaus Meyer-Cabri van Amelrode
out, it is the Head of the Family who determines whether the rules are
observed or not. That lies in the very nature of the autocratic powers
the Emperor/Head of the Family holds. That ensured furthermore a
secure succession. It is not to the members of the Family to question
the Head&#8217;s decision. As seen, Nicholas II withhold his consent
to the marriage of Cyril and Victoria Melita for the only reason that
Victoria Melita had offended the Empress by divorcing the
Empress&#8217;s brother and later rversed his decision. As hard as
this may seen, but this lies in the nature of the supreme and
autocratic power the Head of the Family commands over the Imperial
Clan. Therefore, if Vladimir Cyrillovitch was satisfied that his
marriage would fulfill the requirement of corresponding rank, this
decision had to be accepted.
If it's emperor's perogative which marriages were morganatic, why was
HIM Emperor Aleksandr II's marriage to Princess Ekaterina Dolgoruky
(created HSH Princess Ekaterina Yurievska) morganatic? Why did he
choose to deny a higher style to his wife and children?

Speaking of Aleksandr II's morganatic marriage, is it correct that
while his wife was made a Serene Highness, his children were given the
style of Highness? Why is this? Isn't a titled man's wife supposed to
be more highly ranked than his children?
Dimitry Macedonsky
2005-03-10 23:14:39 UTC
Permalink
<***@gmail.com> wrote:

First of all, can you please quote only part of message you answer to?
Post by m***@gmail.com
If it's emperor's perogative which marriages were morganatic, why was
HIM Emperor Aleksandr II's marriage to Princess Ekaterina Dolgoruky
(created HSH Princess Ekaterina Yurievska) morganatic? Why did he
choose to deny a higher style to his wife and children?
Even Autocrat can not made white black. The Rurikides were rulers centuries
before they became serfes of the Romanovs. Politically promoting Pss
Catherine to Empress could not be accepted by European courts, Imperial
Family and high society.
Post by m***@gmail.com
Speaking of Aleksandr II's morganatic marriage, is it correct that
while his wife was made a Serene Highness, his children were given the
style of Highness?
It is wrong. His children from Empress were Imperial Highnesses, from
Princess Yuryevskaya were Serene Highnesses.
--
Dimitry Macedonsky
St. Petersburg, Russia
http://macedonsky.narod.ru/english.html
Klaus Meyer-Cabri van Amelrode
2005-03-11 07:36:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dimitry Macedonsky
First of all, can you please quote only part of message you answer to?
Post by m***@gmail.com
If it's emperor's perogative which marriages were morganatic, why was
HIM Emperor Aleksandr II's marriage to Princess Ekaterina Dolgoruky
(created HSH Princess Ekaterina Yurievska) morganatic? Why did he
choose to deny a higher style to his wife and children?
Even Autocrat can not made white black. The Rurikides were rulers centuries
before they became serfes of the Romanovs. Politically promoting Pss
Catherine to Empress could not be accepted by European courts, Imperial
Family and high society.
Post by m***@gmail.com
Speaking of Aleksandr II's morganatic marriage, is it correct that
while his wife was made a Serene Highness, his children were given the
style of Highness?
It is wrong. His children from Empress were Imperial Highnesses, from
Princess Yuryevskaya were Serene Highnesses.
Did Alexander II. not have plans to make her Empress or is that more
romantic fiction?
I think it would - as Dimitry already pointed out - quite hard as the
family was already quite opposed to his marriage so soon after the
Empress's death.
W***@gmail.com
2005-03-11 12:34:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Klaus Meyer-Cabri van Amelrode
Post by Dimitry Macedonsky
First of all, can you please quote only part of message you answer to?
Post by m***@gmail.com
If it's emperor's perogative which marriages were morganatic, why was
HIM Emperor Aleksandr II's marriage to Princess Ekaterina Dolgoruky
(created HSH Princess Ekaterina Yurievska) morganatic? Why did he
choose to deny a higher style to his wife and children?
Even Autocrat can not made white black. The Rurikides were rulers centuries
before they became serfes of the Romanovs. Politically promoting Pss
Catherine to Empress could not be accepted by European courts, Imperial
Family and high society.
Post by m***@gmail.com
Speaking of Aleksandr II's morganatic marriage, is it correct that
while his wife was made a Serene Highness, his children were given the
style of Highness?
It is wrong. His children from Empress were Imperial Highnesses, from
Princess Yuryevskaya were Serene Highnesses.
Did Alexander II. not have plans to make her Empress or is that more
romantic fiction?
He may have wanted to, but he was assassinated less than eight months after his
second marriage.
Post by Klaus Meyer-Cabri van Amelrode
I think it would - as Dimitry already pointed out - quite hard as the
family was already quite opposed to his marriage so soon after the
Empress's death.
louisianais
2005-03-12 05:39:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by W***@gmail.com
Post by Klaus Meyer-Cabri van Amelrode
Post by Dimitry Macedonsky
First of all, can you please quote only part of message you answer to?
Post by m***@gmail.com
If it's emperor's perogative which marriages were morganatic, why was
HIM Emperor Aleksandr II's marriage to Princess Ekaterina Dolgoruky
(created HSH Princess Ekaterina Yurievska) morganatic? Why did he
choose to deny a higher style to his wife and children?
Even Autocrat can not made white black. The Rurikides were rulers centuries
before they became serfes of the Romanovs. Politically promoting Pss
Catherine to Empress could not be accepted by European courts, Imperial
Family and high society.
Post by m***@gmail.com
Speaking of Aleksandr II's morganatic marriage, is it correct that
while his wife was made a Serene Highness, his children were given the
style of Highness?
It is wrong. His children from Empress were Imperial Highnesses, from
Princess Yuryevskaya were Serene Highnesses.
Did Alexander II. not have plans to make her Empress or is that more
romantic fiction?
He may have wanted to, but he was assassinated less than eight months after his
second marriage.
I seem to remember reading in Grand Duke Alexander's (husband of GD Xenia
and brother-in-law/ cousin of Nicholas II) "Once a Grand Duke" the family
being scandalised when someone saw Alexander II bouncing one of the Yuriesky
children on his knee (could his name have been Georgy ?) and asking/ telling
him that "Papa was going to make him a Grand Duke."

He also relates that Alexander had Ekaterina come down to an Imperial Family
dinner one evening and made some suggestion about her being Empress, to
which she exclaimed, "Sasha !" in dismay, much to the consternation of the
assembled Imperial Highnesses.

Long out of print, "Once a Grand Duke" is an interesting read, if you can
find it.
Post by W***@gmail.com
Post by Klaus Meyer-Cabri van Amelrode
I think it would - as Dimitry already pointed out - quite hard as the
family was already quite opposed to his marriage so soon after the
Empress's death.
Nicholas Trahan
2005-03-12 15:38:06 UTC
Permalink
Newsgroups: alt.talk.royalty
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 21:39:16 -0800
Subject: Re: Russian Equal Marriages
van
Post by W***@gmail.com
Post by Klaus Meyer-Cabri van Amelrode
Post by Dimitry Macedonsky
First of all, can you please quote only part of message you answer to?
Post by m***@gmail.com
If it's emperor's perogative which marriages were morganatic, why was
HIM Emperor Aleksandr II's marriage to Princess Ekaterina Dolgoruky
(created HSH Princess Ekaterina Yurievska) morganatic? Why did he
choose to deny a higher style to his wife and children?
Even Autocrat can not made white black. The Rurikides were rulers
centuries
Post by W***@gmail.com
Post by Klaus Meyer-Cabri van Amelrode
Post by Dimitry Macedonsky
before they became serfes of the Romanovs. Politically promoting Pss
Catherine to Empress could not be accepted by European courts, Imperial
Family and high society.
Post by m***@gmail.com
Speaking of Aleksandr II's morganatic marriage, is it correct that
while his wife was made a Serene Highness, his children were given
the
Post by W***@gmail.com
Post by Klaus Meyer-Cabri van Amelrode
Post by Dimitry Macedonsky
Post by m***@gmail.com
style of Highness?
It is wrong. His children from Empress were Imperial Highnesses, from
Princess Yuryevskaya were Serene Highnesses.
Did Alexander II. not have plans to make her Empress or is that more
romantic fiction?
He may have wanted to, but he was assassinated less than eight months
after his
Post by W***@gmail.com
second marriage.
I seem to remember reading in Grand Duke Alexander's (husband of GD Xenia
and brother-in-law/ cousin of Nicholas II) "Once a Grand Duke" the family
being scandalised when someone saw Alexander II bouncing one of the Yuriesky
children on his knee (could his name have been Georgy ?) and asking/ telling
him that "Papa was going to make him a Grand Duke."
He also relates that Alexander had Ekaterina come down to an Imperial Family
dinner one evening and made some suggestion about her being Empress, to
which she exclaimed, "Sasha !" in dismay, much to the consternation of the
assembled Imperial Highnesses.
Long out of print, "Once a Grand Duke" is an interesting read, if you can
find it.
I have copies of both "Once a Grand Duke" and "Always A Grand Duke" in my
bookstore. If interested, please email me privately.
Nicholas Trahan

Dimitry Macedonsky
2005-03-12 13:41:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Klaus Meyer-Cabri van Amelrode
Did Alexander II. not have plans to make her Empress or is that more
romantic fiction?
Well, in the decree granting her title Alexander clearly referenced to
Articles 14 and 147 of the Code of Laws. This Articles, in last edition 36
and 188, are about corresponding dignity. After Alexander II himself
recognized his second marriage as unequal it would be hard for him to change
such decision.
--
Dimitry Macedonsky
St. Petersburg, Russia
http://macedonsky.narod.ru/english.html
Alejandro Gomez
2005-03-11 14:50:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dimitry Macedonsky
Even Autocrat can not made white black. The Rurikides were rulers centuries
before they became serfes of the Romanovs. Politically promoting Pss
Catherine to Empress could not be accepted by European courts, Imperial
Family and high society.
Dimitry I have always have this doubt. Why the Romanovs considered the
ancient Russian families as unequal, when they were once rulers of
some Russian states. I think it would have made the Imperial Family
more popular, more Russian to their people, because it was almost 100%
German.
Guy Stair Sainty
2005-03-11 16:54:46 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@posting.google.com>, Alejandro Gomez
says...
Post by Alejandro Gomez
Post by Dimitry Macedonsky
Even Autocrat can not made white black. The Rurikides were rulers centuries
before they became serfes of the Romanovs. Politically promoting Pss
Catherine to Empress could not be accepted by European courts, Imperial
Family and high society.
Dimitry I have always have this doubt. Why the Romanovs considered the
ancient Russian families as unequal, when they were once rulers of
some Russian states. I think it would have made the Imperial Family
more popular, more Russian to their people, because it was almost 100%
German.
I do not think it would have occurred to the Imperial Family that "popularity"
was something they needed or was even somethign they considered. Neither did
the people themselves have much of a view on the popularity of the imperial
family. Most simply took for granted that there was an Emperor; a few
revolutionaries did not want one whoever he married. In any case there
was good reason for foreign marriages - rivalries between the russian
born imperial in-laws in the 16th and 17th centuries had been major
de-stabilising factors. Foreign marriages had the great advantage of not
giving opportunities for such families to claim advancement on the basis
of their royal connections. This was why the Greek and Balkan monarchies
all insisted on royal marriage, knowing that such a criteria would remove
them from any risk of local entanglements and embrassing relations. Look
at what happened when Carol of Roumanai married locally.
--
Guy Stair Sainty
www.chivalricorders.org/index3.htm
Dimitry Macedonsky
2005-03-12 13:45:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alejandro Gomez
Dimitry I have always have this doubt. Why the Romanovs considered the
ancient Russian families as unequal, when they were once rulers of
some Russian states.
Their ancestors were rulers centuries ago and "abdicated" when became Moscow
subjects.
--
Dimitry Macedonsky
St. Petersburg, Russia
http://macedonsky.narod.ru/english.html
Steve
2005-03-11 21:27:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dimitry Macedonsky
Post by m***@gmail.com
If it's emperor's perogative which marriages were morganatic, why was
HIM Emperor Aleksandr II's marriage to Princess Ekaterina Dolgoruky
(created HSH Princess Ekaterina Yurievska) morganatic? Why did he
choose to deny a higher style to his wife and children?
Even Autocrat can not made white black. The Rurikides were rulers centuries
before they became serfes of the Romanovs. Politically promoting Pss
Catherine to Empress could not be accepted by European courts, Imperial
Family and high society.
Surely, the Bagration-Mukhransky family were also serfes of the
Romanovs as their country had been occupied by Tsarist Russia. So why
is Leonida's marriage to Vladimir considered to be equal?
Alejandro Gomez
2005-03-12 02:45:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve
Surely, the Bagration-Mukhransky family were also serfes of the
Romanovs as their country had been occupied by Tsarist Russia. So why
is Leonida's marriage to Vladimir considered to be equal?
Because the chief of the House, His Imperial Highness Grand Duke
Vladimir Kyrillovich decided so.
Dimitry Macedonsky
2005-03-12 13:52:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve
Surely, the Bagration-Mukhransky family were also serfes of the
Romanovs as their country had been occupied by Tsarist Russia.
Not occupied.
Post by Steve
So why is Leonida's marriage to Vladimir considered to be equal?
In 1940-s they were not subjects of each other.
--
Dimitry Macedonsky
St. Petersburg, Russia
http://macedonsky.narod.ru/english.html
m***@gmail.com
2005-03-12 00:56:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dimitry Macedonsky
First of all, can you please quote only part of message you answer to?
Post by m***@gmail.com
If it's emperor's perogative which marriages were morganatic, why was
HIM Emperor Aleksandr II's marriage to Princess Ekaterina Dolgoruky
(created HSH Princess Ekaterina Yurievska) morganatic? Why did he
choose to deny a higher style to his wife and children?
Even Autocrat can not made white black. The Rurikides were rulers centuries
before they became serfes of the Romanovs. Politically promoting Pss
Catherine to Empress could not be accepted by European courts,
Imperial
Post by Dimitry Macedonsky
Family and high society.
Well, Peter the Great married a commoner, Eudoxia Lophukhina, and that
wasn't a morganatic marriage. I don't see why marrying a Princess,
though a serf to the Romanovs, would be turning black white.
Dimitry Macedonsky
2005-03-12 13:58:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@gmail.com
Well, Peter the Great married a commoner, Eudoxia Lophukhina, and that
wasn't a morganatic marriage.
Yes, it was before in 1820 the equal marriage requirement was established.
Post by m***@gmail.com
I don't see why marrying a Princess, though a serf to the Romanovs,
would be turning black white.
I wrote about "serfes" about Rurikides of XVI-XVII centuries. After Peter
III's decree about nobles emancipation they received some rights back. But
during Ivan the Terrible's reign descendants of old families finally lost
any remainders of former sovereignity.
--
Dimitry Macedonsky
St. Petersburg, Russia
http://macedonsky.narod.ru/english.html
Gillian White
2005-03-12 01:29:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dimitry Macedonsky
It is wrong. His children from Empress were Imperial Highnesses, from
Princess Yuryevskaya were Serene Highnesses.
Were there any descendants of this morganatic marriage living in Russia at
the time of the Revolution? If so, were any of them targeted because of
their Imperial heritage?

Gillian
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