Discussion:
Georgian Royal Marriage
(too old to reply)
g***@sainty.org
2009-01-10 14:39:47 UTC
Permalink
The announcement of the forthcoming marriage of Prince David Bagration-
Muchransky and Princess Anna Bagrationi-Gruzinsky to take place in the
Cathedral of Sameba, Tbilisi, on 8 February, represents a highly
successful merger of the two principles surviving lines of the Royal
House of Georgia. Prince David is the head of the line descended from
the younger brother of King Vakhtang V of Kartli-Georgia (whose grand
son was deposed following an Ottoman invasion in 1725); his future
wife is the elder daughter of the two daughters of the head of the
line of Tsars of Kakhetia-Georgia, who in 1725 united with Kartli and
reigned until 1801 when Georgia was incorporated into Russia. The male
line heir presumptive of this latter line was born in 1947 and has no
issue;m the head of nthe family, born in 1950, is likely to be the
last male of this branch and at hisb death the representation of this
line will return to the Bagrations of Moukhrania, who can then
unqeustionably claim to unite in the person of their head the
legitimate representation of this ancient royal house.

Anyone who now tried to deny the royal status of this house in order
to diminish the claim of Grand Duchess Maria Wladimirovna as Head of
the Russian Imperial House will certainly have a much weakened case.
JSF
2009-01-10 16:36:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@sainty.org
The announcement of the forthcoming marriage of Prince David Bagration-
Muchransky and Princess Anna Bagrationi-Gruzinsky to take place in the
Cathedral of Sameba, Tbilisi, on 8 February, ...
This brings up an interesting question for me. When the head of the
Russian Imperial House was executed, along with most of his family,
and the whole political system on which his authority was based was
abolished – what’s left? Is there even a Russian Imperial House at
this point – or is this a case of “what could have been” … especially
given that this “prince” was born long after intervening events. It’s
historically interesting and, no doubt, very relevant to this man and
his family … but … Georgia appears to have moved on. I'm sure someone
will volunteer what I'm missing here!

Regards, Scott
Louis Epstein
2009-01-13 15:22:20 UTC
Permalink
In alt.talk.royalty JSF <***@look.ca> wrote:
: On Jan 10, 5:39?pm, ***@sainty.org wrote:
:> The announcement of the forthcoming marriage of Prince David Bagration-
:> Muchransky and Princess Anna Bagrationi-Gruzinsky to take place in the
:> Cathedral of Sameba, Tbilisi, on 8 February, ...
:
: This brings up an interesting question for me. When the head of the
: Russian Imperial House was executed, along with most of his family,
: and the whole political system on which his authority was based was
: abolished ? what?s left? Is there even a Russian Imperial House at
: this point ? or is this a case of ?what could have been? ? especially
: given that this ?prince? was born long after intervening events. It?s
: historically interesting and, no doubt, very relevant to this man and
: his family ? but ? Georgia appears to have moved on. I'm sure someone
: will volunteer what I'm missing here!
:
: Regards, Scott
:

What you're missing here is that to a Monarchist,
the murders of Monarchs and alleged establishment
of republics are incapable of legal consequence.

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.
Joshua Kreitzer
2009-01-11 05:19:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@sainty.org
The announcement of the forthcoming marriage of Prince David Bagration-
Muchransky and Princess Anna Bagrationi-Gruzinsky to take place in the
Cathedral of Sameba, Tbilisi, on 8 February, represents a highly
successful merger of the two principles surviving lines of the Royal
House of Georgia. Prince David is the head of the line descended from
the younger brother of King Vakhtang V of Kartli-Georgia (whose grand
son was deposed following an Ottoman invasion in 1725); his future
wife is the elder daughter of the two daughters of the head of the
line of Tsars of Kakhetia-Georgia, who in 1725 united with Kartli and
reigned until 1801 when Georgia was incorporated into Russia. The male
line heir presumptive of this latter line was born in 1947 and has no
issue;m the head of nthe family, born in 1950, is likely to be the
last male of this branch and at hisb death the representation of this
line will return to the Bagrations of Moukhrania, who can then
unqeustionably claim to unite in the person of their head the
legitimate representation of this ancient royal house.
Anyone who now tried to deny the royal status of this house in order
to diminish the claim of Grand Duchess Maria Wladimirovna as Head of
the Russian Imperial House will certainly have a much weakened case.
I don't follow how the connection works.

I have read about the Russian succession dispute on this newsgroup and
elsewhere, including Guy Stair Sainty's own article at
http://www.chivalricorders.org/royalty/gotha/russucc.htm titled "The
Russian Imperial Succession: Another View."

However, I don't see how a marriage that takes place in 2009 between
members of two branches of the Georgian royal house could help
establish that the marriage of Maria Vladimirovna's parents -- a
Russian grand duke and a princess of the Georgian royal house -- was
equal when it took place in 1948.

This is not meant to either express support or opposition to Maria
Vladimirovna's claim; rather, I would just like clarification of how
this marriage strengthens her claim.

--
Joshua Kreitzer
***@hotmail.com
CJ Buyers
2009-01-11 08:28:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joshua Kreitzer
Post by g***@sainty.org
The announcement of the forthcoming marriage of Prince David Bagration-
Muchransky and Princess Anna Bagrationi-Gruzinsky to take place in the
Cathedral of Sameba, Tbilisi, on 8 February, represents a highly
successful merger of the two principles surviving lines of the Royal
House of Georgia. Prince David is the head of the line descended from
the younger brother of King Vakhtang V of Kartli-Georgia (whose grand
son was deposed following an Ottoman invasion in 1725); his future
wife is the elder daughter of the two daughters of the head of the
line of Tsars of Kakhetia-Georgia, who in 1725 united with Kartli and
reigned until 1801 when Georgia was incorporated into Russia. The male
line heir presumptive of this latter line was born in 1947 and has no
issue;m the head of nthe family, born in 1950, is likely to be the
last male of this branch and at hisb death the representation of this
line will return to the Bagrations of Moukhrania, who can then
unqeustionably claim to unite in the person of their head the
legitimate representation of this ancient royal house.
Anyone who now tried to deny the royal status of this house in order
to diminish the claim of Grand Duchess Maria Wladimirovna as Head of
the Russian Imperial House will certainly have a much weakened case.
I don't follow how the connection works.
I have read about the Russian succession dispute on this newsgroup and
elsewhere, including Guy Stair Sainty's own article athttp://www.chivalricorders.org/royalty/gotha/russucc.htmtitled "The
Russian Imperial Succession: Another View."
However, I don't see how a marriage that takes place in 2009 between
members of two branches of the Georgian royal house could help
establish that the marriage of Maria Vladimirovna's parents -- a
Russian grand duke and a princess of the Georgian royal house -- was
equal when it took place in 1948.
This is not meant to either express support or opposition to Maria
Vladimirovna's claim; rather, I would just like clarification of how
this marriage strengthens her claim.
--
The Headship of the Georgian Royal House was never restricted to male
line descendants or even legitimate descendants.So the coonection does
not really work on any score.
e***@yahoo.fr
2009-01-11 09:28:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by CJ Buyers
Post by Joshua Kreitzer
Post by g***@sainty.org
The announcement of the forthcoming marriage of Prince David Bagration-
Muchransky and Princess Anna Bagrationi-Gruzinsky to take place in the
Cathedral of Sameba, Tbilisi, on 8 February, represents a highly
successful merger of the two principles surviving lines of the Royal
House of Georgia. Prince David is the head of the line descended from
the younger brother of King Vakhtang V of Kartli-Georgia (whose grand
son was deposed following an Ottoman invasion in 1725); his future
wife is the elder daughter of the two daughters of the head of the
line of Tsars of Kakhetia-Georgia, who in 1725 united with Kartli and
reigned until 1801 when Georgia was incorporated into Russia. The male
line heir presumptive of this latter line was born in 1947 and has no
issue;m the head of nthe family, born in 1950, is likely to be the
last male of this branch and at hisb death the representation of this
line will return to the Bagrations of Moukhrania, who can then
unqeustionably claim to unite in the person of their head the
legitimate representation of this ancient royal house.
Anyone who now tried to deny the royal status of this house in order
to diminish the claim of Grand Duchess Maria Wladimirovna as Head of
the Russian Imperial House will certainly have a much weakened case.
I don't follow how the connection works.
I have read about the Russian succession dispute on this newsgroup and
elsewhere, including Guy Stair Sainty's own article athttp://www.chivalricorders.org/royalty/gotha/russucc.htmtitled"The
Russian Imperial Succession: Another View."
However, I don't see how a marriage that takes place in 2009 between
members of two branches of the Georgian royal house could help
establish that the marriage of Maria Vladimirovna's parents -- a
Russian grand duke and a princess of the Georgian royal house -- was
equal when it took place in 1948.
This is not meant to either express support or opposition to Maria
Vladimirovna's claim; rather, I would just like clarification of how
this marriage strengthens her claim.
--
The Headship of the Georgian Royal House was never restricted to male
line descendants or even legitimate descendants.So the coonection does
not really work on any score.
Vladimir married who? A Bagration (a princess) or a cow girl (Mr Kirby
boy)?

Europe, some countries, marriage law(s), Leonida figures (figured).
among ... (prostitutes and others). And that could be the end of the
story of the story "grand duchess” Maria ...

Did ***@sainty.org deal in a chapter with this aspect of the cows?
Heraldica-Genealogie
2009-01-11 19:33:47 UTC
Permalink
Here is a photo of David Bagration of Mukhrani :

Loading Image...

as well as a picture of the invitation (in Spanish) :

Loading Image...
CJ Buyers
2009-01-11 21:22:58 UTC
Permalink
On Jan 11, 7:33 pm, Heraldica-Genealogie
Post by Heraldica-Genealogie
http://www.royalhouseofgeorgia.ge/img/casa_head_foto_espana_1_5k2c.jpg
http://www.royalhouseofgeorgia.ge/img/invitacion_boda_espanol.jpg
Has anyone actually seen an official document or press statement from
the elder brother, Prince Irakli, renouncing his rights as Head of the
House?

All I have ever been able to find is the younger brother's statement
on his own website. Something that does not give me complete
confidence.
Tim
2009-01-11 23:01:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by CJ Buyers
On Jan 11, 7:33 pm, Heraldica-Genealogie
Post by Heraldica-Genealogie
http://www.royalhouseofgeorgia.ge/img/casa_head_foto_espana_1_5k2c.jpg
http://www.royalhouseofgeorgia.ge/img/invitacion_boda_espanol.jpg
Has anyone actually seen an official document or press statement from
the elder brother, Prince Irakli, renouncing his rights as Head of the
House?
All I have ever been able to find is the younger brother's statement
on his own website. Something that does not give me complete
confidence.
This is an interesting match, and appears to be an old-fashioned
dynastic union meant to unite rival dynastic claims between two long-
separated branches of the Bagration dynasty of Georgia.

The Mukhrani branch (Davit's) is genealogically senior though they've
been non-reigning since being deposed in 1725 as mentioned above. They
left Georgia in 1921 ahead of the Soviet army. Living in Spain they
sought wives from Italian and Spanish noble families thus acquiring
some cosmopolitan connections among the European nobility. Davit's
great-grandfather was also the grandfather of titular Grand Duchess
Maria, one of the Russian Imperial claimants. Davit and his late
father apparently returned to reside in Georgia several years ago.

The Gruzinsky branch descends directly from Georgia's last king,
Georgi XII, who was deposed when Russia annexed his kingdom in 1801 as
mentioned above. The representative of this line has two daughters,
and the eldest (Anna) is the prospective bride. This branch remained
in Georgia throughout the Soviet period. They evidently have no
international connections but have held prominent positions in
Georgia's literary and cultural establishment.

Georgia is one of the three small Transcaucasian nations located on
the border between Europe and Asia. For centuries Georgia (divided
into small kingdoms and principalities) maintained its precarious
independence in an area where the Russian, Persian and Turkish empires
adjoined each other and competed for dominance. Eventually the
Georgian monarch sought Russian protection, and Russia, over his
protests, annexed his kingdom. In the aftermath of the Soviet Union's
disintegration ,Georgia declared her independence but has inherited an
uncertain political legacy and two of her provinces (Abkhazia and
South Ossetia) , supported by Russia, have declared their own
independence and established de facto governments. Georgia
tried,through military force, a few months ago, to re-incorporate
South Ossetia, leading to the Russian military occupation of that
province. The historic rivalry between Russia, Iran and Turkey in the
Transcaucasus is something that Georgia is likely to have to deal
with in the future as well.
Roderick
2009-01-12 07:41:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by CJ Buyers
Has anyone actually seen an official document or press statement from
the elder brother, Prince Irakli, renouncing his rights as Head of the
House?
All I have ever been able to find is the younger brother's statement
on his own website. Something that does not give me complete
confidence.
According to a Spanish language comment to a post at this address:
http://monarquiaeuropea.blogspot.com/2008/01/el-orden-de-sucesin-la-corona-georgiana.html
Prince Davit was named the successor to his father in the late Prince
Geogi's last will and testament. The comment is as follows:

"En el testamento de S.A.R. Jorge Bagrationi, consta y se designa a su
segundo hijo Davit Bagrationi como el único heredero de todos los
derechos dinásticos de la Corona de Georgia y su hijo S.A.R. Irakly
Bagrationi así como toda la Familia Real Georgiana están al corriente
del testamento. El presidente de Georgia y el Patriarca de la Iglesia
Ortodoxa de Georgia Illa II también están al corriente del testamento
y apoyan únicamente la reinstauración de la monarquía en la persona de
S.A.R. Davit Bagrationi Mukhran Batonishvili.

Esto es posible y se debe a la antigua ley de sucesión monárquica de
Georgia.

Les ruego tomen nota de la información puesta a su disposición con el
fin de evitar confusiones y mal entendidos.

Sin otro particular, muy atentamente.

Conde de Guillamón

Secretario S.A.R. Davit Bagrationi Mukhran Batonishvili y
Canciller de la Orden del Águila de Georgia"
CJ Buyers
2009-01-12 07:56:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by CJ Buyers
Has anyone actually seen an official document or press statement from
the elder brother, Prince Irakli, renouncing his rights as Head of the
House?
All I have ever been able to find is the younger brother's statement
on his own website. Something that does not give me complete
confidence.
According to a Spanish language comment to a post at this address:http://monarquiaeuropea.blogspot.com/2008/01/el-orden-de-sucesin-la-c...
Prince Davit was named the successor to his father in the late Prince
"En el testamento de S.A.R. Jorge Bagrationi, consta y se designa a su
segundo hijo Davit Bagrationi como el único heredero de todos los
derechos dinásticos de la Corona de Georgia y su hijo S.A.R. Irakly
Bagrationi así como toda la Familia Real Georgiana están al corriente
del testamento. El presidente de Georgia y el Patriarca de la Iglesia
Ortodoxa de Georgia Illa II también están al corriente del testamento
y apoyan únicamente la reinstauración de la monarquía en la persona de
S.A.R. Davit Bagrationi Mukhran Batonishvili.
Esto es posible y se debe a la antigua ley de sucesión monárquica de
Georgia.
Les ruego tomen nota de la información puesta a su disposición con el
fin de evitar confusiones y mal entendidos.
Sin otro particular, muy atentamente.
Conde de Guillamón
Secretario S.A.R. Davit Bagrationi Mukhran Batonishvili y
Canciller de la Orden del Águila de Georgia"
This is obviously a statement put out by Prince Davit's office. It
isn't even the actual testament of the late father, leaving aside for
a wild moment that monarchies were disposable by will.

My question was "Has anyone actually seen an official document or
press statement from the elder brother, Prince Irakli, renouncing his
rights as Head of the House?"
Louis Epstein
2009-01-13 15:25:03 UTC
Permalink
In alt.talk.royalty CJ Buyers <***@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
: On Jan 12, 7:41?am, Roderick <***@hotmail.com> wrote:
:> On Jan 11, 4:22?pm, CJ Buyers <***@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
:>
:> > Has anyone actually seen an official document or press statement from
:> > the elder brother, Prince Irakli, renouncing his rights as Head of the
:> > House?
:>
:> > All I have ever been able to find is the younger brother's statement
:> > on his own website. Something that does not give me complete
:> > confidence.
:>
:> According to a Spanish language comment to a post at this address:http://monarquiaeuropea.blogspot.com/2008/01/el-orden-de-sucesin-la-c...
:> Prince Davit was named the successor to his father in the late Prince
:> Geogi's last will and testament. The comment is as follows:
:>
:> "En el testamento de S.A.R. Jorge Bagrationi, consta y se designa a su
:> segundo hijo Davit Bagrationi como el ?nico heredero de todos los
:> derechos din?sticos de la Corona de Georgia y su hijo S.A.R. Irakly
:> Bagrationi as? como toda la Familia Real Georgiana est?n al corriente
:> del testamento. El presidente de Georgia y el Patriarca de la Iglesia
:> Ortodoxa de Georgia Illa II tambi?n est?n al corriente del testamento
:> y apoyan ?nicamente la reinstauraci?n de la monarqu?a en la persona de
:> S.A.R. Davit Bagrationi Mukhran Batonishvili.
:>
:> Esto es posible y se debe a la antigua ley de sucesi?n mon?rquica de
:> Georgia.
:>
:> Les ruego tomen nota de la informaci?n puesta a su disposici?n con el
:> fin de evitar confusiones y mal entendidos.
:>
:> Sin otro particular, muy atentamente.
:>
:> Conde de Guillam?n
:>
:> Secretario S.A.R. Davit Bagrationi Mukhran Batonishvili y
:> Canciller de la Orden del ?guila de Georgia"
:
: This is obviously a statement put out by Prince Davit's office. It
: isn't even the actual testament of the late father, leaving aside for
: a wild moment that monarchies were disposable by will.
:
: My question was "Has anyone actually seen an official document or
: press statement from the elder brother, Prince Irakli, renouncing his
: rights as Head of the House?"

Are there children of Prince Irakli?

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.
marlenekoenig
2009-01-13 15:37:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Louis Epstein
:>
:> > Has anyone actually seen an official document or press statement from
:> > the elder brother, Prince Irakli, renouncing his rights as Head of the
:> > House?
:>
:> > All I have ever been able to find is the younger brother's statement
:> > on his own website. Something that does not give me complete
:> > confidence.
:>
:> According to a Spanish language comment to a post at this address:http://monarquiaeuropea.blogspot.com/2008/01/el-orden-de-sucesin-la-c...
:> Prince Davit was named the successor to his father in the late Prince
:>
:> "En el testamento de S.A.R. Jorge Bagrationi, consta y se designa a su
:> segundo hijo Davit Bagrationi como el ?nico heredero de todos los
:> derechos din?sticos de la Corona de Georgia y su hijo S.A.R. Irakly
:> Bagrationi as? como toda la Familia Real Georgiana est?n al corriente
:> del testamento. El presidente de Georgia y el Patriarca de la Iglesia
:> Ortodoxa de Georgia Illa II tambi?n est?n al corriente del testamento
:> y apoyan ?nicamente la reinstauraci?n de la monarqu?a en la persona de
:> S.A.R. Davit Bagrationi Mukhran Batonishvili.
:>
:> Esto es posible y se debe a la antigua ley de sucesi?n mon?rquica de
:> Georgia.
:>
:> Les ruego tomen nota de la informaci?n puesta a su disposici?n con el
:> fin de evitar confusiones y mal entendidos.
:>
:> Sin otro particular, muy atentamente.
:>
:> Conde de Guillam?n
:>
:> Secretario S.A.R. Davit Bagrationi Mukhran Batonishvili y
:> Canciller de la Orden del ?guila de Georgia"
Irakli is not married.

http://royalmusingsblogspotcom.blogspot.com/
Post by Louis Epstein
: This is obviously a statement put out by Prince Davit's office. It
: isn't even the actual testament of the late father, leaving aside for
: a wild moment that monarchies were disposable by will.
: My question was "Has anyone actually seen an official document or
: press statement from the elder brother, Prince Irakli, renouncing his
: rights as Head of the House?"
Are there children of Prince Irakli?
-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.
g***@sainty.org
2009-01-14 09:37:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by marlenekoenig
Post by Louis Epstein
:>
:> > Has anyone actually seen an official document or press statement from
:> > the elder brother, Prince Irakli, renouncing his rights as Head of the
:> > House?
:>
:> > All I have ever been able to find is the younger brother's statement
:> > on his own website. Something that does not give me complete
:> > confidence.
:>
:> According to a Spanish language comment to a post at this address:http://monarquiaeuropea.blogspot.com/2008/01/el-orden-de-sucesin-la-c...
:> Prince Davit was named the successor to his father in the late Prince
:>
:> "En el testamento de S.A.R. Jorge Bagrationi, consta y se designa a su
:> segundo hijo Davit Bagrationi como el ?nico heredero de todos los
:> derechos din?sticos de la Corona de Georgia y su hijo S.A.R. Irakly
:> Bagrationi as? como toda la Familia Real Georgiana est?n al corriente
:> del testamento. El presidente de Georgia y el Patriarca de la Iglesia
:> Ortodoxa de Georgia Illa II tambi?n est?n al corriente del testamento
:> y apoyan ?nicamente la reinstauraci?n de la monarqu?a en la persona de
:> S.A.R. Davit Bagrationi Mukhran Batonishvili.
:>
:> Esto es posible y se debe a la antigua ley de sucesi?n mon?rquica de
:> Georgia.
:>
:> Les ruego tomen nota de la informaci?n puesta a su disposici?n con el
:> fin de evitar confusiones y mal entendidos.
:>
:> Sin otro particular, muy atentamente.
:>
:> Conde de Guillam?n
:>
:> Secretario S.A.R. Davit Bagrationi Mukhran Batonishvili y
:> Canciller de la Orden del ?guila de Georgia"
Irakli is not married.
http://royalmusingsblogspotcom.blogspot.com/
Post by Louis Epstein
: This is obviously a statement put out by Prince Davit's office. It
: isn't even the actual testament of the late father, leaving aside for
: a wild moment that monarchies were disposable by will.
: My question was "Has anyone actually seen an official document or
: press statement from the elder brother, Prince Irakli, renouncing his
: rights as Head of the House?"
Are there children of Prince Irakli?
-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.
As has been stated, the Georgian succession has always passed
irregularly, but almost exclusively among different branches of the
Bagratid dynasty. When the senior Kartli line becamse extinguished in
1658 the throne passed to the next senior line by primogeniture, but
not for this reason but because the previous Tsar, without direct
heirs (although plenty of female line collaterals whom he chose to
ignore) adopted the head of the Mouchransky line, who duly succeeded
(as Vakhtang V). the latter's younger brother became lord, or prince,
of Mouchrania. When the Ottomans invaded and overthrew his grandson,
the Tsar of Kakhetia, a junior line, managed to eject them and unite
Kartli and Kakhetia for the first time for centuries. But in both
lines it had not been exceptional for a throne to by-pass an infant
male and go to a brother, because of the need for an adult male to
rule.

Nonetheless, that said, after the dynasty was desposed, it was still
considered a threat by the Tsarist government and there were repeated
risings and small rebellions, finally quite brutally repressed, in
which Georgians attempted to assert their independence and each time
looked to differnt members of the Bagratid line as their nominal
leaders. Hence it is perfectly reasonable to claim one or other
representative of these lines as the claimant and, if the other
members of that line, acknowledge one among them then that would seem
to accord with the traditions of the dynasty. Now the surviving lines
are much reduced in number and the eldest daughter of the senior
representative of the last reigning line is to marry the second son of
the late head of the senior line by primogeniture. I have been told
that Prince David's elder brother Irakly does not want to live in
Georgia but is settled in his life in Spain; it would seem that he is
perfectly content to accept his younger brother's as head and has
taken a position in the relatively recently minted Georgia dynastic
Order. He will, I understand, be attending his brother's wedding. The
head of the junior, but last reigning line, has accepted the use of
titles by Prince David which represent him as de jure King.

So, despite the mutterings above, there seems little reason not to
accept that this will be a way of uniting the two strongest claims to
represent the Georgian Crown. That the head of the Georgian orthodox
Church, who has already announced his support for a restoration is to
celebrate the marriage is surely a further important indicator.

No doubt, of course, there will be dissenters from this view.
g***@gmail.com
2009-01-15 08:03:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@sainty.org
Post by marlenekoenig
Post by Louis Epstein
:>
:> > Has anyone actually seen an official document or press statement from
:> > the elder brother, Prince Irakli, renouncing his rights as Head of the
:> > House?
:>
:> > All I have ever been able to find is the younger brother's statement
:> > on his own website. Something that does not give me complete
:> > confidence.
:>
:> According to a Spanish language comment to a post at this address:http://monarquiaeuropea.blogspot.com/2008/01/el-orden-de-sucesin-la-c...
:> Prince Davit was named the successor to his father in the late Prince
:>
:> "En el testamento de S.A.R. Jorge Bagrationi, consta y se designa a su
:> segundo hijo Davit Bagrationi como el ?nico heredero de todos los
:> derechos din?sticos de la Corona de Georgia y su hijo S.A.R. Irakly
:> Bagrationi as? como toda la Familia Real Georgiana est?n al corriente
:> del testamento. El presidente de Georgia y el Patriarca de la Iglesia
:> Ortodoxa de Georgia Illa II tambi?n est?n al corriente del testamento
:> y apoyan ?nicamente la reinstauraci?n de la monarqu?a en la persona de
:> S.A.R. Davit Bagrationi Mukhran Batonishvili.
:>
:> Esto es posible y se debe a la antigua ley de sucesi?n mon?rquica de
:> Georgia.
:>
:> Les ruego tomen nota de la informaci?n puesta a su disposici?n con el
:> fin de evitar confusiones y mal entendidos.
:>
:> Sin otro particular, muy atentamente.
:>
:> Conde de Guillam?n
:>
:> Secretario S.A.R. Davit Bagrationi Mukhran Batonishvili y
:> Canciller de la Orden del ?guila de Georgia"
Irakli is not married.
http://royalmusingsblogspotcom.blogspot.com/
Post by Louis Epstein
: This is obviously a statement put out by Prince Davit's office. It
: isn't even the actual testament of the late father, leaving aside for
: a wild moment that monarchies were disposable by will.
: My question was "Has anyone actually seen an official document or
: press statement from the elder brother, Prince Irakli, renouncing his
: rights as Head of the House?"
Are there children of Prince Irakli?
-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.
As has been stated, the Georgian succession has always passed
irregularly, but almost exclusively among different branches of the
Bagratid dynasty. When the senior Kartli line becamse extinguished in
1658 the throne passed to the next senior line by primogeniture, but
not for this reason but because the previous Tsar, without direct
heirs (although plenty of female line collaterals whom he chose to
ignore) adopted the head of the Mouchransky line, who duly succeeded
(as Vakhtang V). the latter's younger brother became lord, or prince,
of Mouchrania. When the Ottomans invaded and overthrew his grandson,
the Tsar of Kakhetia, a junior line, managed to eject them and unite
Kartli and Kakhetia for the first time for centuries. But in both
lines it had not been exceptional for a throne to by-pass an infant
male and go to a brother, because of the need for an adult male to
rule.
Nonetheless, that said, after the dynasty was desposed, it was still
considered a threat by the Tsarist government and there were repeated
risings and small rebellions, finally quite brutally repressed, in
which Georgians attempted to assert their independence and each time
looked to differnt members of the Bagratid line as their nominal
leaders. Hence it is perfectly reasonable to claim one or other
representative of these lines as the claimant and, if the other
members of that line, acknowledge one among them then that would seem
to accord with the traditions of the dynasty. Now the surviving lines
are much reduced in number and the eldest daughter of the senior
representative of the last reigning line is to marry the second son of
the late head of the senior line by primogeniture. I have been told
that Prince David's elder brother Irakly does not want to live in
Georgia but is settled in his life in Spain; it would seem that he is
perfectly content to accept his younger brother's as head and has
taken a position in the relatively recently minted Georgia dynastic
Order. He will, I understand, be attending his brother's wedding. The
head of the junior, but last reigning line, has accepted the use of
titles by Prince David which represent him as de jure King.
So, despite the mutterings above, there seems little reason not to
accept that this will be a way of uniting the two strongest claims to
represent the Georgian Crown. That the head of the Georgian orthodox
Church, who has already announced his support for a restoration is to
celebrate the marriage is surely a further important indicator.
No doubt, of course, there will be dissenters from this view.
It would have made things clearer if there was an explicit
renunciation on the part of Irakly. Without this there is always the
future vulnerability for the Family to be divided by a new split based
upon the irregularity of assigning succession in a last will and
testament. Even if Irakly has no interest in pursuing a claim it is
unclear what will happen in the coming generations.

That said the marriage is an excellent step in advancing Georgian
royalist cause by discerning a single family candidate supported by
both the branches with the strongest claims. Of the nations re-emerged
from behind the once iron curtain Georgia does have a realistic
possibility of a restoration of the monarchy and frankly Georgia might
also benefit, given its presidents, from the counter-weights provided
by a constitutional monarchy. Notwithstanding any muddle in the
process it is hard not to congratulate the Catholicos-Patriarch and
both families, not to mention the young couple. This marriage is good
for the Georgian monarchist cause, for the Bagratid dynasty and
hopefully for the two who are tying the knot.

George Lucki
Rev Fr Dn Nenad M. Jovanovich
2009-01-15 21:04:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@sainty.org
So, despite the mutterings above, there seems little reason not to
accept that this will be a way of uniting the two strongest claims to
represent the Georgian Crown. That the head of the Georgian orthodox
Church, who has already announced his support for a restoration is to
celebrate the marriage is surely a further important indicator.
No doubt, of course, there will be dissenters from this view.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
And another possible indication to this effect is that His Holiness
The Patriarch-Catholicos Ilia II has accepted The Grand Collar of The
Order of The Eagle of Georgia and The Seamless Tunic of Our Lord Jesus
Christ...
accepted from /granted by ... (who?)
By HRH Prince Davit Bagration-Moukhransky, ofcourse.
e***@yahoo.fr
2009-01-16 04:23:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rev Fr Dn Nenad M. Jovanovich
Post by g***@sainty.org
So, despite the mutterings above, there seems little reason not to
accept that this will be a way of uniting the two strongest claims to
represent the Georgian Crown. That the head of the Georgian orthodox
Church, who has already announced his support for a restoration is to
celebrate the marriage is surely a further important indicator.
No doubt, of course, there will be dissenters from this view.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
And another possible indication to this effect is that His Holiness
The Patriarch-Catholicos Ilia II has accepted The Grand Collar of The
Order of The Eagle of Georgia and The Seamless Tunic of Our Lord Jesus
Christ...
accepted from /granted by ... (who?)
By HRH Prince Davit Bagration-Moukhransky, ofcourse.
These twoorders where created ... (year)?
g***@gmail.com
2009-01-16 18:18:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@yahoo.fr
Post by Rev Fr Dn Nenad M. Jovanovich
Post by g***@sainty.org
So, despite the mutterings above, there seems little reason not to
accept that this will be a way of uniting the two strongest claims to
represent the Georgian Crown. That the head of the Georgian orthodox
Church, who has already announced his support for a restoration is to
celebrate the marriage is surely a further important indicator.
No doubt, of course, there will be dissenters from this view.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
And another possible indication to this effect is that His Holiness
The Patriarch-Catholicos Ilia II has accepted The Grand Collar of The
Order of The Eagle of Georgia and The Seamless Tunic of Our Lord Jesus
Christ...
accepted from /granted by ... (who?)
By HRH Prince Davit Bagration-Moukhransky, ofcourse.
These twoorders where created ... (year)?
1939 (more than a hundred years after the Georgian kings lost their
throne.)
Nenad M. Jovanovich
2009-01-17 11:17:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by e***@yahoo.fr
Post by Rev Fr Dn Nenad M. Jovanovich
Post by g***@sainty.org
So, despite the mutterings above, there seems little reason not to
accept that this will be a way of uniting the two strongest claims to
represent the Georgian Crown. That the head of the Georgian orthodox
Church, who has already announced his support for a restoration is to
celebrate the marriage is surely a further important indicator.
No doubt, of course, there will be dissenters from this view.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
And another possible indication to this effect is that His Holiness
The Patriarch-Catholicos Ilia II has accepted The Grand Collar of The
Order of The Eagle of Georgia and The Seamless Tunic of Our Lord Jesus
Christ...
accepted from /granted by ... (who?)
By HRH Prince Davit Bagration-Moukhransky, ofcourse.
These twoorders where created ... (year)?
1939 (more than a hundred years after the Georgian kings lost their
throne.)- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Well, that didn't seem to bother His Hliness The Patriarch...
e***@yahoo.fr
2009-01-17 11:42:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nenad M. Jovanovich
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by e***@yahoo.fr
Post by Rev Fr Dn Nenad M. Jovanovich
Post by g***@sainty.org
So, despite the mutterings above, there seems little reason not to
accept that this will be a way of uniting the two strongest claims to
represent the Georgian Crown. That the head of the Georgian orthodox
Church, who has already announced his support for a restoration is to
celebrate the marriage is surely a further important indicator.
No doubt, of course, there will be dissenters from this view.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
And another possible indication to this effect is that His Holiness
The Patriarch-Catholicos Ilia II has accepted The Grand Collar of The
Order of The Eagle of Georgia and The Seamless Tunic of Our Lord Jesus
Christ...
accepted from /granted by ... (who?)
By HRH Prince Davit Bagration-Moukhransky, ofcourse.
These twoorders where created ... (year)?
1939 (more than a hundred years after the Georgian kings lost their
throne.)- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Well, that didn't seem to bother His Hliness The Patriarch...
HOliness
CJ Buyers
2009-01-17 11:48:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by e***@yahoo.fr
Post by Rev Fr Dn Nenad M. Jovanovich
Post by g***@sainty.org
So, despite the mutterings above, there seems little reason not to
accept that this will be a way of uniting the two strongest claims to
represent the Georgian Crown. That the head of the Georgian orthodox
Church, who has already announced his support for a restoration is to
celebrate the marriage is surely a further important indicator.
No doubt, of course, there will be dissenters from this view.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
And another possible indication to this effect is that His Holiness
The Patriarch-Catholicos Ilia II has accepted The Grand Collar of The
Order of The Eagle of Georgia and The Seamless Tunic of Our Lord Jesus
Christ...
accepted from /granted by ... (who?)
By HRH Prince Davit Bagration-Moukhransky, ofcourse.
These twoorders where created ... (year)?
1939 (more than a hundred years after the Georgian kings lost their
throne.)- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Well, that didn't seem to bother His Hliness The Patriarch...- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
What was it that did bother him so much that he withdrew his support
for Georgia becoming a monarchy?
Tim
2009-01-19 00:57:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by CJ Buyers
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by e***@yahoo.fr
Post by Rev Fr Dn Nenad M. Jovanovich
Post by g***@sainty.org
So, despite the mutterings above, there seems little reason not to
accept that this will be a way of uniting the two strongest claims to
represent the Georgian Crown. That the head of the Georgian orthodox
Church, who has already announced his support for a restoration is to
celebrate the marriage is surely a further important indicator.
No doubt, of course, there will be dissenters from this view.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
And another possible indication to this effect is that His Holiness
The Patriarch-Catholicos Ilia II has accepted The Grand Collar of The
Order of The Eagle of Georgia and The Seamless Tunic of Our Lord Jesus
Christ...
accepted from /granted by ... (who?)
By HRH Prince Davit Bagration-Moukhransky, ofcourse.
These twoorders where created ... (year)?
1939 (more than a hundred years after the Georgian kings lost their
throne.)- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Well, that didn't seem to bother His Hliness The Patriarch...- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
What was it that did bother him so much that he withdrew his support
for Georgia becoming a monarchy?- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
As stated above, Davit Bagration-Mukhraneli comes from the
genealogically senior branch of the Bagrations though they were
deposed centuries ago, while Anna Bagration-Gruzinsky comes from the
Bagration branch descended from the last Georgian kings. Nevertheless,
due to a union between these branches in the early twentieth century,
Davit also has a cognatic descent from King Irakli II of Georgia,
father of King Giorgi XII, the last Georgian king, from whom Anna
descends. Here's a lineage (from Genealogics.org)

King Irakli II Bagration-Gruzinsky of Georgia (1721-1798) father of:
Princess Anastasia of Georgia (1763-1838) mother of:
Prince Shalva Eristavi (1798-1894) father of:
Princess Kethevan (Eristavi) Eristavi, mother of:
Princess Maria (Eristavi) Zlotnicki (1858-1934) mother of:
Helene (Zlotnicki) Bagration-Mukhraneli (1886-1979) mother of:
Irakli Bagration-Mukhraneli (1909-1977) father of:
Georgi (Jorge) Bagration-Mukhraneli (1944-2008) father of:
Davit Bagration-Mukhraneli (b.1976)

Helene (Zlotnicki) Bagration-Mukhraneli was the grandmother of titular
Grand Duchess Maria, one of the Romanov claimants.
Franz
2009-01-20 04:40:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by CJ Buyers
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by e***@yahoo.fr
Post by Rev Fr Dn Nenad M. Jovanovich
Post by g***@sainty.org
So, despite the mutterings above, there seems little reason not to
accept that this will be a way of uniting the two strongest claims to
represent the Georgian Crown. That the head of the Georgian orthodox
Church, who has already announced his support for a restoration is to
celebrate the marriage is surely a further important indicator.
No doubt, of course, there will be dissenters from this view.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
And another possible indication to this effect is that His Holiness
The Patriarch-Catholicos Ilia II has accepted The Grand Collar of The
Order of The Eagle of Georgia and The Seamless Tunic of Our Lord Jesus
Christ...
accepted from /granted by ... (who?)
By HRH Prince Davit Bagration-Moukhransky, ofcourse.
These twoorders where created ... (year)?
1939 (more than a hundred years after the Georgian kings lost their
throne.)- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Well, that didn't seem to bother His Hliness The Patriarch...- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
What was it that did bother him so much that he withdrew his support
for Georgia becoming a monarchy?- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Is one to understand that His Holiness the Patriarch gave his support
for the restoration of the monarchy, then withdrew it?
Tim
2009-01-24 17:56:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Franz
Post by CJ Buyers
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by e***@yahoo.fr
Post by Rev Fr Dn Nenad M. Jovanovich
Post by g***@sainty.org
So, despite the mutterings above, there seems little reason not to
accept that this will be a way of uniting the two strongest claims to
represent the Georgian Crown. That the head of the Georgian orthodox
Church, who has already announced his support for a restoration is to
celebrate the marriage is surely a further important indicator.
No doubt, of course, there will be dissenters from this view.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
And another possible indication to this effect is that His Holiness
The Patriarch-Catholicos Ilia II has accepted The Grand Collar of The
Order of The Eagle of Georgia and The Seamless Tunic of Our Lord Jesus
Christ...
accepted from /granted by ... (who?)
By HRH Prince Davit Bagration-Moukhransky, ofcourse.
These twoorders where created ... (year)?
1939 (more than a hundred years after the Georgian kings lost their
throne.)- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Well, that didn't seem to bother His Hliness The Patriarch...- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
What was it that did bother him so much that he withdrew his support
for Georgia becoming a monarchy?- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Is one to understand that His Holiness the Patriarch gave his support
for the restoration of the monarchy, then withdrew it?- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
It was in 2007 that Katholicos-Patriarch Ilia II announced his support
for restoration of the Georgian monarchy. Ilia himself was born in the
Russian province of North Ossetia, adjacent to Georgia. According to
Wikipedia "...He is a descendant of the influential eastern Georgian
mountainous clan with family ties with the former royal dynasty of the
Bagrationi". Ilia was in Moscow last month for the funeral of the
Russian Orthodox Patriarch and while there he met with Russian
President Medvedev. They probably discussed issues pertaining to last
August's 5-day war between Georgia and Russia over the breakaway
Georgian province of South Ossetia.

Ilia is evidently a force for traditional conservatism in Georgia. The
Georgian government of President Saakashvili is progressive and
nationalistic, and is politically aligned with America and Western
Europe. One of Saakashvili's objectives has been to restore the
province of South Ossetia as part of Georgia. (South Ossetia had
declared its independence in 1991, at the time that Georgia gained its
own independence from the old Soviet Union). The Russian government
might see Ilia, who's also a Georgian nationalist, but a more
traditional one, as a counterweight to the Georgian government of
Saakashvili. Georgia is now caught between its new political
orientation toward the West, and her old orientation toward Russia.
There's bound to be some rivalty here, and the Georgian Katholicos-
Patriarch will no doubt be involved in it. The Georgian Eastern
Orthodox Church, in the short run, is probably protective of her
recent independence from the much larger Russian Orthodox
Patriarchate. But in the long run, she is going to to want to
preserve her traditional ties to the Eastern Orthodox communion of
churches. Eastern Orthodoxy has always been leery of Western-oriented
Christianity. With the rise of Islamic fundamentalism to the south in
Iran and Turkey, and to the north in Russia's Ciscaucasian provinces,
Georgian Orthodoxy will probably seek to balance her own independence
with her traditional ties to Russian Orthodoxy. At any rate, Ilia is
apparently an influential figure religiously, culturally, and
politically as Georgia tries to find a balance between competing
Western, Russian, and Islamic influences.

e***@yahoo.fr
2009-01-15 20:59:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@sainty.org
So, despite the mutterings above, there seems little reason not to
accept that this will be a way of uniting the two strongest claims to
represent the Georgian Crown. That the head of the Georgian orthodox
Church, who has already announced his support for a restoration is to
celebrate the marriage is surely a further important indicator.
No doubt, of course, there will be dissenters from this view.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
And another possible indication to this effect is that His Holiness
The Patriarch-Catholicos Ilia II has accepted The Grand Collar of The
Order of The Eagle of Georgia and The Seamless Tunic of Our Lord Jesus
Christ...
accepted from /granted by ... (who?)
Rev Fr Dn Nenad M. Jovanovich
2009-01-15 20:50:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@sainty.org
So, despite the mutterings above, there seems little reason not to
accept that this will be a way of uniting the two strongest claims to
represent the Georgian Crown. That the head of the Georgian orthodox
Church, who has already announced his support for a restoration is to
celebrate the marriage is surely a further important indicator.
No doubt, of course, there will be dissenters from this view.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
And another possible indication to this effect is that His Holiness
The Patriarch-Catholicos Ilia II has accepted The Grand Collar of The
Order of The Eagle of Georgia and The Seamless Tunic of Our Lord Jesus
Christ...
g***@sainty.org
2009-01-14 09:45:21 UTC
Permalink
As for the equality issue. Georgia was a sovereign state. The
Mouchransky line descends from the brother of King Vakhtang and has,
among its agnatic and cognatic lines, many sovereigns. In the 1940s
when the marriage of Princess Leonida to Grand Duke Vladimir took
place it was no further removed from sovereign descent than Henri IV
of France was removed from the French succession in 1589, or the
Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glucksbergs and Augustenbergs were from
descending from a sovereign line. The Emperors of Russia demoted the
Bargatids to mere nobles because it suited them politically; that a
successor regime denies the rights and claims of one it replaces is
hardly strange - for those who consider such demotions sufficient to
"de-royal" some royal line, then one may dismiss the royal claims of
almost every dynasty that has reigned in Europe but no longer does
so.

If, indeed, there is a restoration in Georgia and Prince David
Bagration-Mouchransky becomes King, then the very fact of his
selection would illustrate that the claims of his line to royal rank,
and to represent a claim to Georgia were indeed legitimate. This would
support the claim of his great-aunt to equality with her husband in
the meaning of the Pauline laws (proclaimed when Georgia was still an
independent, sovereign monarchy), aside from the fact that such
decisions were made by the Emperor anyway.

Gudenus (edespalais) vulgar comments are no less than one expects from
this churlish and resentful man.
e***@yahoo.fr
2009-01-14 13:33:22 UTC
Permalink
On 14 jan, 10:45, ***@sainty.org wrote:
...
Post by g***@sainty.org
Gudenus (edespalais) vulgar comments are no less than one expects from
this churlish and resentful man.
one wrote: illustration: kitsch, furthermore: and one stops ...

suppose others has better heraldic designs.

Bagration, one hold NO informations, thereforee again: on stops and
leave this subject to those who are informed!
David / Amicus
2009-01-11 23:31:58 UTC
Permalink
The whole Imperial Russian succession may be moot unless the GD George
can find an "equal" bride and produce an heir.
Louis Epstein
2009-01-13 15:25:57 UTC
Permalink
David / Amicus <***@webtv.net> wrote:
: The whole Imperial Russian succession may be moot unless the GD George
: can find an "equal" bride and produce an heir.
:

And it is of CRITICAL importance that the GD rearrange the rules so
that the requirement for equal marriage cease for future generations.

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.
Mr. Scooter
2009-01-13 06:55:45 UTC
Permalink
On , , Sat, 10 Jan 2009 21:19:21 -0800 (PST), Re: Georgian Royal
Post by Joshua Kreitzer
I have read about the Russian succession dispute on this newsgroup and
elsewhere, including Guy Stair Sainty's own article at
http://www.chivalricorders.org/royalty/gotha/russucc.htm titled "The
Russian Imperial Succession: Another View."
I tried to read it but the brilliant teal or aquamarine on black was
too much by the end of the second line.
I'm sure it is a great article but I'll never be able to find out
while those two colours clash on the screen.
I realise it may be absolutely smashing from a stylish and artistic
point of view but this searcher for information will have to disagree
from a readability point of view.
George T SLC
2009-01-13 07:05:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mr. Scooter
On , , Sat, 10 Jan 2009 21:19:21 -0800 (PST), Re: Georgian Royal
Post by Joshua Kreitzer
I have read about the Russian succession dispute on this newsgroup and
elsewhere, including Guy Stair Sainty's own article at
http://www.chivalricorders.org/royalty/gotha/russucc.htmtitled "The
Russian Imperial Succession: Another View."
I tried to read it but the brilliant teal or aquamarine on black was
too much by the end of the second line.
I'm sure it is a great article but I'll never be able to find out
while those two colours clash on the screen.
I realise it may be absolutely smashing from a stylish and artistic
point of view but this searcher for information will have to disagree
from a readability point of view.
On my machine it's white on purple today, highly readable. In any
case, when colors don't work, you can try this (if you're using
Windows on a PC): Press Ctrl+A (that is, while holding down the
Control key and press the A key). This will select the whole page,
ordinarily changing the color of the background, the text, or both.
Don Aitken
2009-01-13 14:36:11 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 12 Jan 2009 23:05:30 -0800 (PST), George T SLC
Post by George T SLC
Post by Mr. Scooter
On , , Sat, 10 Jan 2009 21:19:21 -0800 (PST), Re: Georgian Royal
Post by Joshua Kreitzer
I have read about the Russian succession dispute on this newsgroup and
elsewhere, including Guy Stair Sainty's own article at
http://www.chivalricorders.org/royalty/gotha/russucc.htmtitled "The
Russian Imperial Succession: Another View."
I tried to read it but the brilliant teal or aquamarine on black was
too much by the end of the second line.
I'm sure it is a great article but I'll never be able to find out
while those two colours clash on the screen.
I realise it may be absolutely smashing from a stylish and artistic
point of view but this searcher for information will have to disagree
from a readability point of view.
On my machine it's white on purple today, highly readable. In any
case, when colors don't work, you can try this (if you're using
Windows on a PC): Press Ctrl+A (that is, while holding down the
Control key and press the A key). This will select the whole page,
ordinarily changing the color of the background, the text, or both.
Or go to Internet Options | General | Accessibility and check "Ignore
colors specified on Web pages", in which case the browser will use
your own color scheme. (This is for IE; other browsers will do the
same thing).
--
Don Aitken
Mail to the From: address is not read.
To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com"
e***@yahoo.fr
2009-01-13 08:03:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mr. Scooter
On , , Sat, 10 Jan 2009 21:19:21 -0800 (PST), Re: Georgian Royal
Post by Joshua Kreitzer
I have read about the Russian succession dispute on this newsgroup and
elsewhere, including Guy Stair Sainty's own article at
http://www.chivalricorders.org/royalty/gotha/russucc.htmtitled "The
Russian Imperial Succession: Another View."
I tried to read it but ...
Top left side, somebody using heraldic language would say: not left
but right, an illustration: kitsch, and one stops ...
David
2009-01-14 21:23:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@yahoo.fr
Top left side, somebody using heraldic language would say: not left
but right, an illustration: kitsch, and one stops ...
I would say left, but if there were any occasion for using the
language of blazon, I would say _dexter_, but on no account "right".

As for kitsch -- it's impossible to have a discussion of aesthetics
these days, because we have lost a common language, or frame of
reference, by which art and symbol can be discussed and compared.
Such a common language vanished in the 1910s. Thenceforward, there
was no such thing as an accepted standard to judge art or symbol;
there was just what you, as an individual, liked, and what you didn't
like. Beauty is now in the eye of the beholder.

There remain a few practical limitations on presentation which can be
discussed with some degree of objectivity; for instance, that a
tightly compressed white serif typeface on a royal purple background
presents difficulties to the reader which are likely to be an even
greater obstacle than "kitsch".
e***@yahoo.fr
2009-01-15 07:29:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by David
Post by e***@yahoo.fr
Top left side, somebody using heraldic language would say: not left
but right, an illustration: kitsch, and one stops ...
I would say left, but if there were any occasion for using the
language of blazon, I would say _dexter_, but on no account "right".
You are of course quite rigt. Unfortunately one does not write
English, as one should, therefore even not heraldic English, which is
rather ancient heraldic French!
Post by David
As for kitsch -- it's impossible to have a discussion of aesthetics
these days, because we have lost a common language, or frame of
reference, by which art and symbol can be discussed and compared.
Such a common language vanished in the 1910s.  Thenceforward, there
was no such thing as an accepted standard to judge art or symbol;
there was just what you, as an individual, liked, and what you didn't
like.  Beauty is now in the eye of the beholder.
There remain a few practical limitations on presentation which can be
discussed with some degree of objectivity; for instance, that a
tightly compressed white serif typeface on a royal purple background
presents difficulties to the reader which are likely to be an even
greater obstacle than "kitsch".
Jonas Arnell
2009-01-16 12:18:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mr. Scooter
On , , Sat, 10 Jan 2009 21:19:21 -0800 (PST), Re: Georgian Royal
Post by Joshua Kreitzer
I have read about the Russian succession dispute on this newsgroup and
elsewhere, including Guy Stair Sainty's own article at
http://www.chivalricorders.org/royalty/gotha/russucc.htmtitled "The
Russian Imperial Succession: Another View."
I tried to read it but the brilliant teal or aquamarine on black was
too much by the end of the second line.
I'm sure it is a great article but I'll never be able to find out
while those two colours clash on the screen.
I realise it may be absolutely smashing from a stylish and artistic
point of view but this searcher for information will have to disagree
from a readability point of view.
Do what I do when colours make it hard to read on the Internet: Click
with the mouse and mark the passage you want to read. The colours
reverts - or at least change to colours more readable.
Continue reading on narkive:
Loading...