Discussion:
Katharine Hepburn dies at age 96
(too old to reply)
Nicholas Trahan
2003-06-30 01:18:51 UTC
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Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.talk.royalty
Date: 30 Jun 2003 00:08:11 GMT
Subject: Katharine Hepburn dies at age 96
This is not off topic. Besides being my favorite actor, she was the direct
descendant of the earl of Bothwell, James Hepburn, Mary Q. of Scots' 3rd
husband.
Katharine was not an actor, she was a very talented ACTRESS. Why are you
using the masculine of the adjective to describe a woman when the feminine
exists?

But the genealogical information is quite interesting, thank you.
http://hometown.aol.com/thedennyreport/KatharineHepburn.html
Lowell
JUNE 2003: The Denny Report
News, Views, and Muse - http://hometown.aol.com/thedennyreport/frontpage.html
Unsustainable Developments * Rich, Black, and Flunking * The Most
Controversial
Story NEVER Heard * Clare Short Resigns *
Lowell
2003-06-30 01:39:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nicholas Trahan
Katharine was not an actor, she was a very talented ACTRESS. Why are you
using the masculine of the adjective to describe a woman when the feminine
exists?
In MANY interviews, dating back to the 30's, Hepburn referred to herself as an
ACTOR. To further DISTRESS you, she also referred to herself as a MAN [i.e.,
"I'm just the man that keeps the furnace (Katharine Hepburn) going."

More shock and awe from the cheap seats!

Lowell

JUNE 2003: The Denny Report
News, Views, and Muse - http://hometown.aol.com/thedennyreport/frontpage.html
Unsustainable Developments * Rich, Black, and Flunking * The Most Controversial
Story NEVER Heard * Clare Short Resigns *
Grant Menzies
2003-06-30 01:37:29 UTC
Permalink
This is not off topic. Besides being my favorite actor, she was the direct
descendant of the earl of Bothwell, James Hepburn, Mary Q. of Scots' 3rd
husband.
http://hometown.aol.com/thedennyreport/KatharineHepburn.html
She was also such a magnificent Eleanor of Aquitaine, in the film
version of James Goldman's _The Lion in Winter_, that it feels almost
as if the great Eleanor herself has finally been gathered to her
ancestors.

Grant
=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Grant Menzies
=-=-=-=-=-=-=

http://www.authorsden.com/grantmmenzies
Lowell
2003-06-30 03:51:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Grant Menzies
She was also such a magnificent Eleanor of Aquitaine, in the film
version of James Goldman's _The Lion in Winter_, that it feels almost
as if the great Eleanor herself has finally been gathered to her
ancestors.
Grant
Indeed. Wonderful, cutting dialogue in that film. The only dislike was that she
was so layered and wrapped in cloaks and shawls and headwraps. I wanted to see
her body [the form, that is] MOVE with those words [i.e., "It's 1183, and we
are still barbarians ..." But she played it like a stage performance and sat
still through most of the movie.

Lowell

JUNE 2003: The Denny Report
News, Views, and Muse - http://hometown.aol.com/thedennyreport/frontpage.html
Unsustainable Developments * Rich, Black, and Flunking * The Most Controversial
Story NEVER Heard * Clare Short Resigns *
Grant Menzies
2003-06-30 03:55:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lowell
Post by Grant Menzies
She was also such a magnificent Eleanor of Aquitaine, in the film
version of James Goldman's _The Lion in Winter_, that it feels almost
as if the great Eleanor herself has finally been gathered to her
ancestors.
Grant
Indeed. Wonderful, cutting dialogue in that film. The only dislike was that she
was so layered and wrapped in cloaks and shawls and headwraps. I wanted to see
her body [the form, that is] MOVE with those words [i.e., "It's 1183, and we
are still barbarians ..." But she played it like a stage performance and sat
still through most of the movie.
True - but oh - that scene sitting at the fireplace, with Henry, when
she talks about having "known the world," and now she's bricked up in
Salisbury Tower.... moving, and gorgeous, all at once.

Grant
=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Grant Menzies
=-=-=-=-=-=-=

http://www.authorsden.com/grantmmenzies
Grant Menzies
2003-06-30 01:39:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nicholas Trahan
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.talk.royalty
Date: 30 Jun 2003 00:08:11 GMT
Subject: Katharine Hepburn dies at age 96
This is not off topic. Besides being my favorite actor, she was the direct
descendant of the earl of Bothwell, James Hepburn, Mary Q. of Scots' 3rd
husband.
Katharine was not an actor, she was a very talented ACTRESS. Why are you
using the masculine of the adjective to describe a woman when the feminine
exists?
Tell that to another great actress, Julie Harris. She has always
referred to herself as an actor. I was corrected by her on that point
once and learned to never say "actress" in her presence. Plenty of
other classic female performers tend toward the same usage.

Grant
=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Grant Menzies
=-=-=-=-=-=-=

http://www.authorsden.com/grantmmenzies
Andy.3rd
2003-06-30 01:51:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Grant Menzies
Tell that to another great actress, Julie Harris. She has always
referred to herself as an actor. I was corrected by her on that point
once and learned to never say "actress" in her presence. Plenty of
other classic female performers tend toward the same usage.
Grant
I saw her almost take one interviewer apart when, after discussing her use of
the word actor, he used actress a second time. :)

To bad Julie never did opera- she'd have been GREAT in some of the mad scenes!


His Illustrious and Most Serene Jadedness, Andy, RSM
Grant Menzies
2003-06-30 02:05:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy.3rd
Post by Grant Menzies
Tell that to another great actress, Julie Harris. She has always
referred to herself as an actor. I was corrected by her on that point
once and learned to never say "actress" in her presence. Plenty of
other classic female performers tend toward the same usage.
Grant
I saw her almost take one interviewer apart when, after discussing her use of
the word actor, he used actress a second time. :)
To bad Julie never did opera- she'd have been GREAT in some of the mad scenes!
She actually did "sing" in the musical _Skyscraper_ (and I know she
would smilingly give me permission to put that word in quotes) - and
in the play William Luce wrote for her, on the life of Isak Dinesen,
he gave her several songs to sing - but when you have a speaking voice
that is already sweet as singing, there's no need to go further :-)

That said, she'd have made a marvelous Lucia di Lammermoor.

Grant
=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Grant Menzies
=-=-=-=-=-=-=

http://www.authorsden.com/grantmmenzies
Andy.3rd
2003-06-30 02:25:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Grant Menzies
That said, she'd have made a marvelous Lucia di Lammermoor.
Grant
That was the actual opera I was thinking of. I saw Callas do it once and STILL
gets goosebumps.


His Illustrious and Most Serene Jadedness, Andy, RSM
Grant Menzies
2003-06-30 03:53:25 UTC
Permalink
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
Newsgroups: alt.talk.royalty
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 01:39:30 GMT
Subject: Re: Katharine Hepburn dies at age 96
Post by Nicholas Trahan
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.talk.royalty
Date: 30 Jun 2003 00:08:11 GMT
Subject: Katharine Hepburn dies at age 96
This is not off topic. Besides being my favorite actor, she was the direct
descendant of the earl of Bothwell, James Hepburn, Mary Q. of Scots' 3rd
husband.
Katharine was not an actor, she was a very talented ACTRESS. Why are you
using the masculine of the adjective to describe a woman when the feminine
exists?
Tell that to another great actress, Julie Harris. She has always
referred to herself as an actor. I was corrected by her on that point
once and learned to never say "actress" in her presence. Plenty of
other classic female performers tend toward the same usage.
Pity. ANother example of the dumbing down of America and her language!
When you've made as great a career at whatever it is you do as these
women have in their field, I suppose you, too, can call yourself
whatever you wish. We'll be waiting for that day.

Grant
=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Grant Menzies
=-=-=-=-=-=-=

http://www.authorsden.com/grantmmenzies
Louis Epstein
2003-06-30 15:34:42 UTC
Permalink
Grant Menzies <***@europa.com> wrote:
: Nicholas Trahan <***@sarovpress.com> wrote:

:>> From: ***@aol.comnojunk (Lowell)
:>> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
:>> Newsgroups: alt.talk.royalty
:>> Date: 30 Jun 2003 00:08:11 GMT
:>> Subject: Katharine Hepburn dies at age 96
:>>
:>> This is not off topic. Besides being my favorite actor, she was the direct
:>> descendant of the earl of Bothwell, James Hepburn, Mary Q. of Scots' 3rd
:>> husband.
:>
:>Katharine was not an actor, she was a very talented ACTRESS. Why are you
:>using the masculine of the adjective to describe a woman when the feminine
:>exists?

: Tell that to another great actress, Julie Harris. She has always
: referred to herself as an actor. I was corrected by her on that point
: once and learned to never say "actress" in her presence. Plenty of
: other classic female performers tend toward the same usage.

And similar to the failure of Edward Estlin Cummings
and Kathryn Dawn Lang to capitalize their names,it
is the responsibility of chroniclers to clearly correct
these affectations on what should NOT be seen as a matter
of personal choice.

So why did Miss Hepburn accept Best ACTRESS Oscars,
and Miss Harris Best ACTRESS Tonys?

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.
Grant Menzies
2003-06-30 15:37:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Louis Epstein
:>> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
:>> Newsgroups: alt.talk.royalty
:>> Date: 30 Jun 2003 00:08:11 GMT
:>> Subject: Katharine Hepburn dies at age 96
:>>
:>> This is not off topic. Besides being my favorite actor, she was the direct
:>> descendant of the earl of Bothwell, James Hepburn, Mary Q. of Scots' 3rd
:>> husband.
:>
:>Katharine was not an actor, she was a very talented ACTRESS. Why are you
:>using the masculine of the adjective to describe a woman when the feminine
:>exists?
: Tell that to another great actress, Julie Harris. She has always
: referred to herself as an actor. I was corrected by her on that point
: once and learned to never say "actress" in her presence. Plenty of
: other classic female performers tend toward the same usage.
And similar to the failure of Edward Estlin Cummings
and Kathryn Dawn Lang to capitalize their names,it
is the responsibility of chroniclers to clearly correct
these affectations on what should NOT be seen as a matter
of personal choice.
When you've made as great a name for yourself, Louis, as any of the
people we are discussing, you, too, can call yourself what you wish,
with capitals or without. We are now waiting for you and Mr Trahan to
reach that goal. *Patiently*, I might add.


=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Grant Menzies
=-=-=-=-=-=-=

http://www.authorsden.com/grantmmenzies
Stan Brown
2003-07-01 03:10:17 UTC
Permalink
Where have you been? Those who act -- regardless of sex -- have
referred to themselves as actors for years now. I mean, how many
coppettes, firefighteresses, pilotinas, doctresses, etc., do you know?
"Pilotina" -- love it.

Perhaps we should go whole hog, along Mark Twain's lines in "The
Awful German Language"
<http://www.crossmyt.com/hc/linghebr/awfgrmlg.html>, and refer to
"she-actresses".
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Royalty FAQs:
1. http://www.heraldica.org/faqs/britfaq.html
2. http://www.heraldica.org/faqs/atrfaq.htm
Yvonne's HRH page: http://users.uniserve.com/~canyon/prince.html
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm
Andy.3rd
2003-06-30 03:48:54 UTC
Permalink
Pity. ANother example of the dumbing down of America and her language!
Nicholas Trahan
Acting is a profession. Do we have Lawyeress. Doctoress, Judgess, Senatoress?
Politicianess?


His Illustrious and Most Serene Jadedness, Andy, RSM
Lowell
2003-06-30 03:54:25 UTC
Permalink
Pity. ANother example of the dumbing down of America and her language!
Nicholas Trahan
Hmmm. Katharine Hepburn and Julie Harris ... or Nicholas Trahan: who would I
prefer to tinker with or dumb down the sacred American language????

Lowell

JUNE 2003: The Denny Report
News, Views, and Muse - http://hometown.aol.com/thedennyreport/frontpage.html
Unsustainable Developments * Rich, Black, and Flunking * The Most Controversial
Story NEVER Heard * Clare Short Resigns *
Louis Epstein
2003-06-30 15:37:12 UTC
Permalink
Sacha <***@xgarden506.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
: in article BB25083B.F8A8%***@sarovpress.com, Nicholas Trahan at
: ***@sarovpress.com wrote on 30/6/03 2:18 am:

:>
:>> From: ***@aol.comnojunk (Lowell)
:>> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
:>> Newsgroups: alt.talk.royalty
:>> Date: 30 Jun 2003 00:08:11 GMT
:>> Subject: Katharine Hepburn dies at age 96
:>>
:>> This is not off topic. Besides being my favorite actor, she was the direct
:>> descendant of the earl of Bothwell, James Hepburn, Mary Q. of Scots' 3rd
:>> husband.
:>
:> Katharine was not an actor, she was a very talented ACTRESS. Why are you
:> using the masculine of the adjective to describe a woman when the feminine
:> exists?
:>
: Most female actors now refer to themselves in just that way.

How sad and foolish.

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.
Charles von Hamm
2003-06-30 16:47:53 UTC
Permalink
Why are a bunch of adults arguing over what a late actress called herself?
Everyone gets the idea, so stop being so vindictive.

I'm 15 and even I can see that this is stupid.
Don Aitken
2003-06-30 22:29:23 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 30 Jun 2003 12:47:53 -0400, "Charles von Hamm"
Post by Charles von Hamm
Why are a bunch of adults arguing over what a late actress called herself?
Everyone gets the idea, so stop being so vindictive.
I'm 15 and even I can see that this is stupid.
You just made an importnt discovery - no age-group has a monopoly on
childish behavior.
--
Don Aitken
Fish
2003-07-01 15:59:26 UTC
Permalink
In article <Z_YLa.1082$***@news20.bellglobal.com>, ***@xyz.com
says...
Post by Charles von Hamm
Why are a bunch of adults arguing over what a late actress called herself?
Everyone gets the idea, so stop being so vindictive.
I'm 15 and even I can see that this is stupid.
Yeah. And how come nobody got so upset about our good buddy the Hon.
Strom Thurmond? He was 100 and eh set the record for the longest career
in the U.S. Senate.

Fish
Robert Hansen
2003-07-01 21:24:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fish
says...
Post by Charles von Hamm
Why are a bunch of adults arguing over what a late actress called herself?
Everyone gets the idea, so stop being so vindictive.
I'm 15 and even I can see that this is stupid.
Yeah. And how come nobody got so upset about our good buddy the Hon.
Strom Thurmond? He was 100 and eh set the record for the longest career
in the U.S. Senate.
...and how come Patty Murray or Kay Bailey Hutchison don't call themselves
Senatoresses? Inquiring minds want to know...

-rah


--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert A. Hansen - Austin TX - ***@prodigy.net
"Now what liberty can there be where property
is taken without consent?" -- Samuel Adams
Frank R.A.J. Maloney
2003-07-02 00:55:11 UTC
Permalink
"Robert Hansen" <***@prodigy.net> wrote in message news:C_mMa.2203$***@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...

[deletions]
Post by Robert Hansen
...and how come Patty Murray or Kay Bailey Hutchison don't call themselves
Senatoresses? Inquiring minds want to know...
In point of fact, the use of feminine forms of these nouns is entirely
bogus. English uses a natural system of noun gender and has no need for
male/female pairs of nouns. Words like sculptress, poetess, authoress, etc.
were invented ex post facto to denigrate and trivialize women who worked
outside the traditional bounds of their society. Remember Dr. Johnson's
remark about a woman novelist, viz. that the fact that she wrote well was
not what was remarkable but rather that she wrote at all?
--
Frank in Seattle

___________

Frank Richard Aloysius Jude Maloney

"I leave you now in radiant contentment"
-- "Whistling in the Dark"
Stan Brown
2003-07-01 03:06:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nicholas Trahan
Katharine was not an actor, she was a very talented ACTRESS. Why are you
using the masculine of the adjective to describe a woman when the feminine
exists?
Tempora mutantur nos mutantur in illis, or something like that.
Anyone have the correct proverb meaning "The times change, and we
change with the times"?

It is no longer correct to designate female job titles as though
they were somehow diminutive versions of the "real" titles.(*)
"Manageress", for instance, is long gone; "stewardess" and
"authoress" ditto.

"Actress" is perhaps not quite dead, but it's dying. I can't tell
where you're posting from, but I suspect this trend has gone further
in the States than in the UK.

(*) It works the other way too: "male nurse" is gradually being
recognized as being just as bad as "lady doctor".
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Royalty FAQs:
1. http://www.heraldica.org/faqs/britfaq.html
2. http://www.heraldica.org/faqs/atrfaq.htm
Yvonne's HRH page: http://users.uniserve.com/~canyon/prince.html
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm
Uwe Schollmeyer
2003-07-01 12:12:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stan Brown
"Manageress", for instance, is long gone; "stewardess" and
"authoress" ditto.
No stewardesses any more ? How are they called today ? In Germany it is still
stewardess.
(I liked the suggestion of "Great Stewardess" for Diana, POW)
Sacha
2003-07-01 15:55:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Uwe Schollmeyer
Post by Stan Brown
"Manageress", for instance, is long gone; "stewardess" and
"authoress" ditto.
No stewardesses any more ? How are they called today ? In Germany it is still
stewardess.
(I liked the suggestion of "Great Stewardess" for Diana, POW)
Flight attendant.
--
Sacha
Lowell
2003-07-01 04:09:31 UTC
Permalink
(quoted from your tribute)
while Hepburn was descended directly from the Earl of Bothwell, last husband
of Mary Queen of Scots,
Do you have some proof of this descent? A family tree, perhaps?
This was mentioned in a 1940's interview/profile from Life Magazine [I think],
which I read years ago. I later read it in a Hepburn biography. There were
never more details provided, and since I had been working on a school paper
about women in Hollywood, I did not pursue that angle. But a private email from
someone asking for details has set me to work to support or refute this.

What I have found so far is that James Bothwell was married four times [perhaps
a polygamist], so his children's legitimacy is questionable - at any rate his
title passed to his nephew, Francis.

Lowell

JUNE 2003: The Denny Report
News, Views, and Muse - http://hometown.aol.com/thedennyreport/frontpage.html
Unsustainable Developments * Rich, Black, and Flunking * The Most Controversial
Story NEVER Heard * Clare Short Resigns *
Frank R.A.J. Maloney
2003-07-01 04:57:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lowell
(quoted from your tribute)
while Hepburn was descended directly from the Earl of Bothwell, last husband
of Mary Queen of Scots,
Do you have some proof of this descent? A family tree, perhaps?
This was mentioned in a 1940's interview/profile from Life Magazine [I think],
which I read years ago. I later read it in a Hepburn biography. There were
never more details provided, and since I had been working on a school paper
about women in Hollywood, I did not pursue that angle. But a private email from
someone asking for details has set me to work to support or refute this.
What I have found so far is that James Bothwell was married four times [perhaps
a polygamist], so his children's legitimacy is questionable - at any rate his
title passed to his nephew, Francis.
If I recall correctly from reading Barbara Leaming's biography "Katharine
Hepburn" (an excellent book, btw, especially for the history of the three
generations of her fascinating family before her) that the Bothwell
connection was fabricated by studio publicists and has no basis in fact.
--
Frank in Seattle

___________

Frank Richard Aloysius Jude Maloney

"I leave you now in radiant contentment"
-- "Whistling in the Dark"
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