Discussion:
Semi-Salic succession?
(too old to reply)
David
2007-11-07 16:35:31 UTC
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How is semi-Salic succession supposed to work? I know that the
inheritance is supposed to go to a surviving female of the house by
degree of kinship to the last surviving male of the dynasty, but how
is the degree of kinship measured?

Suppose the last male dynast has no daughters, but has the
following female relatives:

a) An elder sister
b) A younger sister
c) An elder brother's daughter
d) A younger brother's daughter
e) An aunt older than his father
f) An aunt younger than his father
g) A daughter of an uncle older than his father
h) A daughter of an uncle younger than his father

What would be their order of succession? And am I missing any other
relatives who would come between them?
j***@yahoo.com
2007-11-08 00:13:55 UTC
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Post by David
How is semi-Salic succession supposed to work? I know that the
inheritance is supposed to go to a surviving female of the house by
degree of kinship to the last surviving male of the dynasty, but how
is the degree of kinship measured?
Suppose the last male dynast has no daughters, but has the
a) An elder sister
b) A younger sister
c) An elder brother's daughter
d) A younger brother's daughter
e) An aunt older than his father
f) An aunt younger than his father
g) A daughter of an uncle older than his father
h) A daughter of an uncle younger than his father
What would be their order of succession? And am I missing any other
relatives who would come between them?
It depends on the particular type of semi-Salicism -- which (unlike
Salicism or male-preferred primogeniture) is not uniform in practice.
And, for the most part, it has been largely non-applicable throughout
history.

The common thread, it seems, is emphasis on DIRECT DESCENT, to
determine the female most "closely" related to the last male --
meaning that daughters and granddaughters take precedence over sisters
or aunts. But even then, the position of heiress is not always
clear. Suppose, for instance, that the last male sovereign fathered
several daughters -- the eldest of whom predeceased him, having
married but produced only daughters herself? Would he be succeeded by
HER own eldest daughter (his senior granddaughter) -- or his own
second daughter (who might have sons)?

While it is generally understood that a last male sovereign would be
succeeded by his senior female descendant in the direct line, it's not
always clear whether it's the eldest SURVIVING daughter who is
implied. To compound matters further, if an eldest daughter were to
predecease a father who dies as the last male sovereign, having
married and produced SONS, it is almost always certain that the said
sovereign would be succeeded by his eldest grandson through that
eldest daughter.

In the Netherlands, these questions were clarified by Parliament in
1884 -- the year Prince Fredrik (uncle of King Willem III) died,
thereby leaving the dynastic male line extinct (excepting the king).
As it was clear that Willem III would die as the last male of the
House of Orange, Princess Wilhelmina (his only daughter) was confirmed
as heiress presumptive to the Dutch throne.

Beyond her, the relative places of other female members were
determined by direct descent from the LAST kings in succession. By
which I mean: as Wilhelmina was an only daughter, unmarried and
childless, her aunt Sophie (by marriage the grand duchess of Saxe-
Weimar-Eisenach) was heiress presumptive to the Dutch throne from 1890
(the year Willem III died) until her own death in 1897, by virtue of
being the daughter of the last king before Willem III -- his own
father, Willem II. After Princess Sophie's descendants came the
descendants of Princess Marianne, the daughter of the last king before
Willem II -- his father Willem I.

Finally, there were the descendants of Prince Fredrik (who himself
never became king) -- the second son of King Willem I, as well as the
brother of King Willem II and the uncle of King Willem III. Fredrik
had produced two daughters -- the elder of whom (Princess Louise of
the Netherlands, by marriage the queen of Sweden and Norway)
predeceased him, leaving an only child, a daughter also named Louise
(born a princess of Sweden and Norway, she would become the queen of
Denmark as the consort of King Frederik VIII). According to the Dutch
system of semi-Salicism, girls could represent their mothers:
therefore, Queen Louise of Denmark and her descendants had precedence
over the descendants of her aunt, Princess Marie of Wied -- the second
daughter of Prince Fredrik.

But like I said: this was the semi-Salic law as applicable to the
Netherlands -- where the succession had the daughter of the last king,
followed by the daughter of the last king before him, etc (if
Wilhelmina had had a younger sister named Helene, this hypothetical
princess would not have had a place in the line to the throne even
after the death of great-uncle Fredrik in 1884: only the heiress would
have been in line. Princess Helene would have assumed her place as
first in line only in 1890 -- when King Willem III died. For
according to the logic of semi-Salicism, Wilhelmina would then have
become the "last king" of the House of Orange: since she had no
daughters of her own until 1909, her younger sister would have been
heiress by virtue of being the daughter of the last king before
Wilhelmina -- meaning their own father, Willem III).

Other royal houses undoubtedly had variations of the law.
Graham Truesdale
2007-11-10 00:38:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@yahoo.com
In the Netherlands, these questions were clarified by Parliament in
1884 -- the year Prince Fredrik (uncle of King Willem III) died,
thereby leaving the dynastic male line extinct (excepting the king).
As it was clear that Willem III would die as the last male of the
House of Orange, Princess Wilhelmina (his only daughter) was confirmed
as heiress presumptive to the Dutch throne.
Beyond her, the relative places of other female members were
determined by direct descent from the LAST kings in succession. By
which I mean: as Wilhelmina was an only daughter, unmarried and
childless, her aunt Sophie (by marriage the grand duchess of Saxe-
Weimar-Eisenach) was heiress presumptive to the Dutch throne from 1890
(the year Willem III died) until her own death in 1897, by virtue of
being the daughter of the last king before Willem III -- his own
father, Willem II. After Princess Sophie's descendants came the
descendants of Princess Marianne, the daughter of the last king before
Willem II -- his father Willem I.
Finally, there were the descendants of Prince Fredrik (who himself
never became king) -- the second son of King Willem I, as well as the
brother of King Willem II and the uncle of King Willem III. Fredrik
had produced two daughters -- the elder of whom (Princess Louise of
the Netherlands, by marriage the queen of Sweden and Norway)
predeceased him, leaving an only child, a daughter also named Louise
(born a princess of Sweden and Norway, she would become the queen of
Denmark as the consort of King Frederik VIII). According to the Dutch
therefore, Queen Louise of Denmark and her descendants had precedence
over the descendants of her aunt, Princess Marie of Wied -- the second
daughter of Prince Fredrik.
http://pages.prodigy.net/ptheroff/gotha/netherlands.html
says Frederik died in 1881, aged 84. Presumably until then
it was possible that the King (aged 64 when his uncle died)
might die first, leaving the crown to pass to Frederik and
thence to Queen Louise of Denmark

Here's one for SHWI - let Frederik outlive Willem III - probably easier to
do if you make the latter die sooner. So on Frederik's death, Louise becomes
Queen Regnant of the Netherlands. She has been married to the future Frederik
VIII of Denmark since 1869, and will become Queen Consort of Denmark in
1906. Their son became Christian X of Denmark in OTL in 1912, and would
become Christian I of the Netherlands in this TL in 1926. Could lead to
interesting consequences in WWII.

I suppose that the Dutch might legislate to avoid personal union occurring
(much as this would have distressed Loopy). But NB that in OTL they
took no steps to prevent Luxembourg coming under a separate monarch
due to the vagaries of succession.
--
Somebody has said, that a king may make a nobleman, but he cannot make a gentleman.
Edmund Burke
François R. Velde
2007-11-08 05:05:59 UTC
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j***@yahoo.com
2007-11-09 00:15:09 UTC
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David / Amicus
2007-11-09 00:44:48 UTC
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Doesn't "semi-salic" also sometimes mean that the sovereign will remain
male but his inheritance comes through some female line?

Don't some Carlists follow this with a Princess Blanca?
j***@yahoo.com
2007-11-09 05:06:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by David / Amicus
Doesn't "semi-salic" also sometimes mean that the sovereign will remain
male but his inheritance comes through some female line?
Don't some Carlists follow this with a Princess Blanca?
I believe this was the way of the grand duchy of Baden. However, it
wouldn't really be called "semi-Salic": for under this law, the female
most closely related to the last male sovereign is considered a male,
for the purpose of succession. Accordingly, she succeeds in her own
right (although the throne then reverts back to the male line
descending from her) -- as opposed to serving merely as a conduit in
the succession.
David / Amicus
2007-11-10 02:51:43 UTC
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Is what Henry VIII an example of semi-salic succession - first Edward
and his descendents then Mary and her's and finally Elizabeth and her's?
Graham Truesdale
2007-11-10 12:20:39 UTC
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Post by David / Amicus
Is what Henry VIII an example of semi-salic succession - first Edward
and his descendents then Mary and her's and finally Elizabeth and her's?
I don't think so. The essence of any sort of Salic Law is that a
more distantly-descended male line relative takes precedence
over a more closely-descended female-line relative. If (say)
Henry VIII's younger brother Edmund (1499-1500) had lived,
and had been put into the succession after Edward but before
Mary and Elizabeth, that would have been semi-Salic law.
Rico
2007-11-12 07:17:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by David / Amicus
Is what Henry VIII an example of semi-salic succession - first Edward
and his descendents then Mary and her's and finally Elizabeth and her's?
Heny VIII sitpulated male prefered premogeniture (can't ever get that
spelling right), it was the first time in English history that such a line
of succession was settled on.

Graham Truesdale
2007-11-10 01:02:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by François R. Velde
Baden was a very special case, where a particular rule was set up allowing for
transmission through but not to females, and with an arbitrarily set order of
succession.
JK - Luxembourg since the 1907 Family Statute -- passed to clarify the
terms of the 1783 Nassau Family Pact, but which in reality actually
modified the terms -- would be another peculiar example. In it, Grand
Duke Guillaume IV stipulated that succession to the throne would pass
to each of his six daughters, in order of age, and their respective
male descendants in the male line. According to this scheme, the
grand duchy was to pass first to Marie Adelheid and her male
descendants of the male line, descendants, then Charlotte and her male
descendants of the male line, etc.

This, of course, is not a genuine semi-Salic law (which had been
stipulated in the original Nassau Pact) -- which states that when the
male line becomes extinct, the female most closely related to the last
male sovereign succeeds. So if, by some fluke, the Grand Duke Henri
died today as the last male descendant of the male line of the Grand
Duchess Charlotte, the throne of Luxembourg would pass to the male
descendants of the male line of Princess Sophie -- Charlotte's
youngest sister -- not Princess Alexandra (Henri's only daughter).

In other words, Grand Duke Guillaume IV basically treated all six of
his daughters as though they were male dynasts of the male line,
according to his succession scheme (he granted more rights to his
younger daughters, at the expense of future female descendants through
his elder daughters).

In the Netherlands, however, it appeared that genuine semi-Salicism
applied -- until Parliament in 1922 changed the succession law to male-
preferred primogeniture. However, even then, it's not clear what
would have happened if King Willem III had fathered several daughters
-- not just one -- whereby the eldest predeceased him, having married
and produced only daughters herself. In light of the fact tht
Parliament in 1884 stipulated that the descendants of Prince Fredrik's
elder daughter (Princess Louise of Sweden and Norway, by marriage the
prospective queen of Denmark) would have priority over the descendants
of her aunt (Fredrik's younger daughter, Princess Marie of Wied), it
seems that daughters could represent deceased mothers.

So I'm guessing that an hypothetical Princess Juliana (let's move the
clock of her birthdate to 1902, not 1909, and assume that King Willem
III was still living at the time of his granddaughter's birth) would
still have eventually succeeded her grandfather, in the event that
mother Wilhelmina predeceased him -- even if the king had had
surviving younger daughters with sons.

GT - the Luxembourg situation sounds a bit like the rules for the
Dukedom of Marlborough, where according to
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.heraldry/msg/39ce92887816109
From the 1st Duke to


(1) the heirs male of his body lawfully begotten,


(2) his oldest daughter and the heirs male of her body lawfully begotten,

(3) his second and other daughters, in seniority, and the heirs male of
their bodies lawfully begotten,
(4) his oldest daughter's oldest daughter and the heirs male of her body
lawfully begotten,
(5) all other daughters of his daughters and the heirs male of their
bodies,
(6) and other descendants into the future in like fashion, with the
intent that the Marlborough title never become extinct.


So if all the male-line descendants of the Countess of Sunderland (mother

of the third Duke) were wiped out to-morrow, the present Marquess of

Blandford being the last to die, the title would pass not to Blandford's daughter

Araminta Clementine Megan (born April 2007) but to the heir of the

first Duke's grand-daughter the Countess of Jersey. Amazing how

often that nobleman seems to crop up in discussions of way-out

succession possibilities!
--
Somebody has said, that a king may make a nobleman, but he cannot make a gentleman.
Edmund Burke
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