Discussion:
'Duke of San Donato' ?
(too old to reply)
m***@btinternet.com
2008-02-29 07:24:34 UTC
Permalink
I recently came across this Wikipedia article on the Italian Dukes of
San Donato, allegedly scions of the Norman kings of Sicily:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_or_Duchess_San_Donato

There is also an article on someone who presently claims this title,
"HE Don Marco Lupis Macedonio Palermo of the Princes of Santa
Margherita":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marco_Lupis

The former article was largely written by a single-interest
contributor called "Nosferamus", while the latter was written by
Nosferamus and another single-interest individual called "Olitwist",
who had created it.

The full style and titles claimed for the 'Duke' are:

HE Marquis Don Marco Lupis Macedonio Palermo di Santa Margherita de
Luna d'Aragona Sanseverino di Càlvera, 13th Duke of San Donato, 12th
Duke of Grottolelle, 14th Marquis of Tortora, 11th Marquis of
Ruggiano, 10th Marquis of Oliveto, 8th Marquis of Capriglia, Marquis
of Villa, Count Palatine, 13th Baron of Poligori, 12th Baron of
Castania and Cuzzoghieri, 16th Baron of Policastrello, 12th Baron of
Roggiano, 16th Baron of Càlvera, 20st Baron of Giungano, 9th Baron of
Rutino and Monteforte, Baron of Bisaccia, Baron of the Corrija of
Badolato, Baron of Amato, 16th Lord of dé Mattarellis, 17th Lord of
the Cilento Forest, 11th Lord of the Nisida Island, Feudal Lord of
Grotteria joint with Siderno, Martone, San Giovanni and annexed lands,
and of half fief of Ragusia (Gioiosa Jonica), Noble of Princes of
Santa Margherita and Santo Stefano, Noble of Marquises of Calorendi,
Noble of Barons of Martini, Mili, Capodarso, Bulgarano etc, Hereditary
Patrician of Giovinazzo, Hereditary Patrician of Amantea, Hereditary
Patrician of Messina, Hereditary Patrician of Antiochia etc.

What credibility attaches to these claims?

Cheers, Michael Andrews-Reading
Turenne
2008-02-29 11:17:14 UTC
Permalink
A pal checked on some of the titles for me:

Lebano and Lupis for example are not in "Elenco ufficiale nobiliare
italiano, Torino 1922".

Atienza y Navajas, Julio de; Barón de Cobos de Belchite
Nobiliario español
Diccionario heraldico de apellidos españoles y de títulos nobiliarios
Madrid 1954²

gives "Títulos nobiliarios concedidos por Monarcas españoles en
Nápoles existentes en el archivo general de Simancas". On p. 1039-1043
I found

Duques - San Donato - A Escipión Sanseverino. Valladolid, 29 de
septiembre de 1602

Grottolelle, not in the list

Marqués - Ruggiano - A Aníbal Macedonio. Madrid, 16 de noviembre de
1629

Oliveto, not in the list

Marqués - Tortura (sic!) - A Aníbal Macedinio (sic!). Madrid, 27 de
abril de 1624

Also in:

Genealogie delle famiglie nobili del Mediterraneo

http://www.genmarenostrum.com/index.htm

The family exists, but the president is 'dott. don Marco, marchese
Lupis Macedonio Palermo dei principi di Santa Margherita, XIII duca di
San Donato, patrizio di Giovinazzo' which doesn't assure the accuracy
of the genealogy!

I've chased down some sites which you may have come across: Please
note the coats of arms; a) they seem to be overprinted and b) there
seem to be discrepancies.

http://www.genmarenostrum.com/storia/Successione_San_Donato.html

http://www.genmarenostrum.com/pagine-lettere/letteras/SANSEVERINO/SANSEVERINO4.htm

http://www.lupis.it/lupis.html#Palazzo%20Lupis%20a%20Grotteria%20(RC)

http://www.lupis.it/lupis.html#Tra%20leggenda%20e%20tradizione

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_or_Duchess_San_Donato

Richard Lichten
Turenne
2008-02-29 21:31:51 UTC
Permalink
Post Script:

None of his Spanish titles are on any Spanish titular register.

Richard L
m***@btinternet.com
2008-03-02 00:25:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Turenne
None of his Spanish titles are on any Spanish titular register.
Richard L
Many thanks Richard.

Another poseur and self-publicist, it seems!

Cheers, Michael
vegemite
2008-03-09 01:03:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@btinternet.com
I recently came across this Wikipedia article on the Italian Duke
o
Post by m***@btinternet.com
San Donato, allegedly scions of the Norman kings of Sicily
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_or_Duchess_San_Donat
There is also an article on someone who presently claims thi
title
Post by m***@btinternet.com
"HE Don Marco Lupis Macedonio Palermo of the Princes of Sant
Margherita"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marco_Lupi
The former article was largely written by a single-interes
contributor called "Nosferamus", while the latter wa
written b
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Nosferamus and another single-interest individual calle
"Olitwist"
Post by m***@btinternet.com
who had created it
The full style and titles claimed for the 'Duke' are
HE Marquis Don Marco Lupis Macedonio Palermo di Santa Margherita d
Luna d'Aragona Sanseverino di Càlvera, 13th Duke of San Donato
12t
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Duke of Grottolelle, 14th Marquis of Tortora, 11th Marquis o
Ruggiano, 10th Marquis of Oliveto, 8th Marquis of Capriglia
Marqui
Post by m***@btinternet.com
of Villa, Count Palatine, 13th Baron of Poligori, 12th Baron o
Castania and Cuzzoghieri, 16th Baron of Policastrello, 12th Baro
o
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Roggiano, 16th Baron of Càlvera, 20st Baron of Giungano, 9th Baro
o
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Rutino and Monteforte, Baron of Bisaccia, Baron of the Corrija o
Badolato, Baron of Amato, 16th Lord of dé Mattarellis, 17th Lord o
the Cilento Forest, 11th Lord of the Nisida Island, Feudal Lord o
Grotteria joint with Siderno, Martone, San Giovanni and annexe
lands
Post by m***@btinternet.com
and of half fief of Ragusia (Gioiosa Jonica), Noble of Princes o
Santa Margherita and Santo Stefano, Noble of Marquises o
Calorendi
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Noble of Barons of Martini, Mili, Capodarso, Bulgarano etc
Hereditar
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Patrician of Giovinazzo, Hereditary Patrician of Amantea
Hereditar
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Patrician of Messina, Hereditary Patrician of Antiochia etc
What credibility attaches to these claims
Cheers, Michael Andrews-Readin
If you are able to rea
italian language (and it's seem's you aren't...) I cannot be s
definitive

As Richard Lichten wrote, the San Donato title was granted by the Kin
of Spain to Scipione Sanseverino, exactly as stated on the wikipedi
article

Also the two main titles claimed, "marquis of Ruggiano an
Tortora", seem's to be granted to the Macedonio family, a
stated in the same article, and the MAcedonio family result extinc
in the claimant family.
In the links cited, it's clearly explained that that this surnam
(Macedonio) was granted to the claimant, by the Italian Authorities
in force of the extinction of this family into the claimant family

If - once again - you will be alble to read italian, you'll see her
http://www.jlaforums.com/link.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.genmarenostrum.com%2Fstoria%2FSuccessione_San_Donato.htm
that the direct line from the first duke, the cited Scipion
Sanseverino, to the claimant, seem's to be documented and quit
beleiveble

All this kind of thinks, by the way, could only seen today as
"claim" to the title, considering that in Italy, presently
tehre are no monarch or kings or "fons honorum" that can
validate this kind of claim

regard

S. Ross
m***@btinternet.com
2008-03-09 04:30:35 UTC
Permalink
If you are able to read
italian language (and it's seem's you aren't...)
I am's, actually, so you probably shouldn't make assumptions.

(snip)
If - once again - you will be alble to read italian, you'll see herehttp://www.jlaforums.com/link.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.genmarenostrum...
 that the direct line from the first duke, the cited Scipione
Sanseverino, to the claimant, seem's to be documented and quite
beleiveble.
All this kind of thinks, by the way, could only seen today as a
"claim" to the title, considering that in Italy, presently,
tehre are no monarch or kings or "fons honorum" that can
validate this kind of claims
The problem is, I don't believe the material that the claimant has
written and put on his website can be considered an authoratative or
independent reference for the claims - that is a circular argument:

Q. What are you?
A. I am a Duke

Q. How do we know that's true?
A. Because I say so.

The website of the claimant has no greater validity than the Wikipedia
article that the claimant wrote about himself using fake identities.
regards
S. Rossi
Ah, another fake identity to add to the list?

Antoine Andrra
Antonius Severida
Aristide
Arsandri
Duke Marco Lupis
Ernesto Taveneses Calcaterra de Saleida
Jack Baschon
M. de la Fayette
Marc Antoine Andrra
Marco Lupis Macedonio Palermon di Santa Margherita
MN
MLS
Nosferamus
Olitwist
Pedro Aldonco
S.
Saluzzo
Sito Lupis
Steven Loyd

That makes it an even 20 - how nice.

MA-R
e***@yahoo.fr
2008-03-09 05:20:56 UTC
Permalink
Something says to me: Demidoff, toscanian title; but caveat canem
m***@btinternet.com
2008-03-13 12:25:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Ah, another fake identity to add to the list?
It seems the answer is "yes". This is the current tally:

Antoine Andrra
Antonius Severida
Aristide
Arsandri
Duke Marco Lupis
Ernesto Taveneses Calcaterra de Saleida
Jack Baschon
M. de la Fayette
Marc Antoine Andrra
Marco Lupis Macedonio Palermon di Santa Margherita
MN
MLS
Nosferamus
Olitwist
Pala Lupis
Pedro Aldonco
S.
Saluzzo
Silvia Rossi
Sito Lupis
Steven Loyd
Vegemite

Email addresses:

***@email.it [andrra AT email DOT it]
***@katamail.com [arsandri AT katamail DOT com]
***@email.it [cannalonga AT email DOT it]
***@katamail.com [ebaschenis AT katamail DOT com]
***@lupis.it [info AT lupis DOT it]
***@email.it [istpalalupis AT email DOT it]
***@genmarenostrum.com [mlupis AT genmarenostrum DOT com]
***@email-dot-it.no-spam.invalid [rusilvia AT email-dot-it DOT no-
spam DOT invalid]
Post by m***@btinternet.com
That makes it an even 20 - how nice.
Well past that now. Sheesh. Is it any wonder why this chap's
"titles" should be considered questionable?

MA-R
m***@btinternet.com
2008-03-13 07:45:44 UTC
Permalink
On March 13, 2008 at 4.43 pm "vegemite" wrote:

(mega-snip).

Wow. 320 lines: mostly personal abuse, some repetitive assertions,
and several pinches of rubbish thrown in for good measure.
I'm afraid you got problems Reading :lol: not only Italian language, but
English too... despite of the second part of your fake names... [i:0ef8763de5]
mister michael-reading something. [/i:0ef8763de5]
Regardless of whether you have problems with my name, "Doctor
Rossi" [may I call you Silvia?], it is my real one and not a fake - as
your online stalking must have demonstrated to you.
You wrote. "I realize he changed his name to adopt that of some ancient
noble family." Once again you understand nothing. I didn't write he changed
his name, I wrote: "obtained a recognition from the Italian Authorities
("[i:0ef8763de5]Decreto del Ministro della Giustizia e successivo decreto del
Consiglio di Stato[/i:0ef8763de5]") of HIS right to use and to join to his
surname the surnames of the two noble families of the -MACEDONIO (dukes
of Grottolelle, marquises of Ruggiano, Tortora etc, as indicated) and
PALERMO (princes of Santa Margherita and Santo Stefano etc,)"
To join to, not to change
On the contrary, I understand exactly. He *changed* his name, adding
various others to it. Splitting hairs doesn't advance your argument.
The process is the same for obtaining a Royal Licence in the UK. It's
still a *change* of name.
The family is also present in many web site, like "Nobili Napoletani"
http://www.nobili-napoletani.it/Macedonio.htm; "Decano Nobiliare Calabrese
http://digilander.libero.it/caccia_alla_volpe/l_dec_nob_cal.html etc.
Yes, I've seen both of these websites. They are the "external
references" that Mr Lupis appeals to in the Wikipedia article he wrote
about himself. Unfortunately, they are worthless for the purposes of
this thread, as neither includes any reference to him, and the only
"reference" they cite for the typed information they contain is... Mr
Lupis's own website.
The claimant got the right [i:0ef8763de5]to join to[/i:0ef8763de5] his surname
(already a noble surname) the surnames of the [i:0ef8763de5]Macedonio
[/i:0ef8763de5] and [i:0ef8763de5]Palermo[/i:0ef8763de5], not because some
day he woke up from his bed and said [i:0ef8763de5]"Oh, I like this surnames
.... I want to join them to mine!"[/i:0ef8763de5], but in force of the fact,
recognized by Italian authorities, that he is the unique descendant of those
families (Macedonio dukes of Grottolelle and Palermo prince of Santa
Margherita).
We know he is not the "unique" descendant - they are many others
(including his own older brother). You are over-egging your pudding,
"Doctor".

(I may also add that, with the greatest of respect, your posts are so
cluttered with bad formatting that it is a struggle to decipher them.)
The title of duke of San Donato have nothing to do whit this,
The title of 'Duke of San Donato" is the entire purpose of this
thread. Who's trying to confuse whom?
You can continue to "dance a boogy-woogy" here with your free-spreaded
-venom, tryng to insulte, denigrate and confuse things as you are used to
be (see below), but facts, sources, documents and books will remain.
Oh, you've hurt my feelings now.
By the way, because of the fact that in Italy no longer exist the
monarchy, the right of this title must be seen as a claim, as we said
from the beginning of this discussion.
It seems we are in complete agreement here - and this is the nub of
the thread. Mr Lupis claims to be descended from a number of noble
families, and (absent any kind of official arbitration) he claims
several of their former titles - as well as some that it seems his
direct ancestors never claimed or used for themselves.
In my knowledge, you are nobody, coming from no were.
So what?
Searching your alleged "real" name on Internet, can come to same very
Stalk me as much as you like; I'm not ashamed of my views of fakes and
frauds, which are backed up with facts, and I'm not afraid for these
to be open to scrutiny or criticism.
You prefer to stay carefully hidden under you fake identity, of course.
My name and details are widely available, and there is clearly nothing
fake about them. You embarrass yourself by continuing with this line
of assertions - but feel free to continue if you wish.
On the contrary, the claimant Mr. Lupis - that you are trying to injure, insult
and denigrate in any way on the web, is a real person and never needs to hide
himself.
Sigh. Mr Lupis has published his claims all over the internet. I
have questioned them. And Mr Lupis is documented as having used a
long list of fake names and identities online. Do a search on some of
the aliases I appended earlier if you doubt this.
Due of my doctorate researches, I had the pleasure to know him and his
marvellous wife and childrens
I think you mean "wives and children".

And you, mister michael-reading something.... once again, who are
you?

I am,
with kind regards,
Michael Andrews-Reading
e***@yahoo.fr
2008-03-09 07:59:55 UTC
Permalink
Demidoff [toscanian] duke of ... (1837), a kind of Russian Fugger
family (ennoobled 1726). See Gotha, French ed., 1933, 598.
for Nicolai
2008-03-09 08:21:30 UTC
Permalink
From Richard Lichten>>>
Please note the coats of arms; a) they seem to be overprinted and b)
there
seem to be discrepancies. !!!!!!!<<<


These are not only over painted,
it is also a very poor job!
:(
vegemite
2008-03-09 22:32:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@btinternet.com
@ "Michael Andrews-Reading", o
"Michael" or "M-A" (fake identities :D ...?
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Replies ar in "bold"
[b:f27a9f5b76]It is very difficult to understand what you ar
writing--- I'm sorry (for you) but it's seem's to be a lot o
nonsense:[/b:f27a9f5b76]
(vegemite
Post by m***@btinternet.com
If you are able to rea
italian language (and it's seem's you aren't...
I am's, actually, so you probably shouldn't make assumptions
(snip
[b:f27a9f5b76]REPLY: Once again I'm sorry for you, but Instead o
your "circular argument" :D and self-assumption,you'l
excuse me if I'm still keeping a differente idea.... You
contrbutions speak for you[/b:f27a9f5b76
Post by m***@btinternet.com
If - once again - you will be alble to read italian, you'll se
herehttp://www.jlaforums.com/link.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.genmarenostrum..
Post by m***@btinternet.com
that the direct line from the first duke, the cited Scipion
Sanseverino, to the claimant, seem's to be documented and quit
beleiveble
All this kind of thinks, by the way, could only seen today as
"claim" to the title, considering that in Italy
presently
Post by m***@btinternet.com
tehre are no monarch or kings or "fons honorum" tha
ca
Post by m***@btinternet.com
validate this kind of claim
The problem is, I don't believe the material that the claimant ha
written and put on his website can be considered an authoratative o
independent reference for the claims - that is a circular argument

Q. What are you
A. I am a Duk

Q. How do we know that's true
A. Because I say so


[b:f27a9f5b76]Very absurd. Doesn't matter who wrote who. What it'
important, in my huble opinion, are simply the sources indicated i
this article and in any article. [/b:f27a9f5b76

The website of the claimant has no greater validity than th
Wikipedi
article that the claimant wrote about himself using fake identities

[b:f27a9f5b76]Oh, tht's very funny, once again. So you are such a sor
of Wiki-web-internetpoliceman. You made police investigations and yo
got evidence of fake identities... :lol:
Incredible funny.[/b:f27a9f5b76

[b:f27a9f5b76]And, tell me because I really can't underdstand, fro
when nicknames in the web must b
considered [i:f27a9f5b76]fake identitites[/i:f27a9f5b76]? :shock:
:lol:
Interesting, really
Such a lot of fake identities here too! :lol:
[/b:f27a9f5b76


[b:f27a9f5b76]Regard

S. Rossi[/b:f27a9f5b76
m***@btinternet.com
2008-03-10 05:26:07 UTC
Permalink
[b:f27a9f5b76]And, tell me because I really can't underdstand, from
when nicknames in the web must be
Yes, you pretended that you used false names as a "nickname" the last
time you were caught out using fake identities.

If your name is, say, "Marco Lupis" but you are generally known as
"Loopy", that's a nickname.

If you then sign posts from various email addresses as "S. Rossi" and
"Steven Loyd" and "Jack Baschon" and "Antoine Andrra", that's using
fake identities.

I predict your next move will be to descend to low-level obscenities -
it's what you usually do when caught out.

Kind regards, Michael
vegemite
2008-03-09 22:32:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@yahoo.fr
Demidoff [toscanian] duke of ... (1837), a kind of Russia
Fugge
Post by e***@yahoo.fr
family (ennoobled 1726). See Gotha, French ed., 1933, 598
Very funny! :D
The Demidoff family hold a DIFFERENT title - princ
and not duke - on a DIFFERENT San Donato title
village - location (fief)
Check here http://jssgallery.org/Paintings/Princess_Demidoff.htm
Principality of San Donato was located in what is now greate
Florence. Unfortunately, it no longer exists and the Chateau / Vill
di San Donato (thumbnail right) was destroyed during World War II.

This title was granted to Anatole N. Demidoff, 1st Prince of Sa
Donato (1813-1870) [u:ef8ec85b36]in the second half of XIX century
[/u:ef8ec85b36

The title of DUKE of San Donato referring to the village of SAN DONAT
DI NINEA in south of Italy, in the Calabria region, near the borde
whit the Basilicata (ancient Lucania) region, and [u:ef8ec85b36]wa
granted to Scipione Sanseverino in 1602![/u:ef8ec85b36

The two titles are completely independents and have nothing to do eac
other

Veri-very funny :lol:

S. Ross

Post Scriptum. For your information: in Italy exists dozens o
villages -towns holding the name of San Donato...
e***@yahoo.fr
2008-03-10 07:04:11 UTC
Permalink
 > > Demidoff [toscanian] duke of ... (1837), a kind of Russian
Fugger
 >
 >
 >
 > Very funny! :D
 >
 > The Demidoff family hold a DIFFERENT title - prince
and not duke - on a DIFFERENT San Donato title -
village - location  (fief)!
 >
 > Check herehttp://jssgallery.org/Paintings/Princess_Demidoff.htm
Principality of San Donato was located in what is now greater
Florence. Unfortunately, it no longer exists and the Chateau / Villa
di San Donato (thumbnail right) was destroyed during World War II.  
This title was granted to Anatole N. Demidoff, 1st Prince of San
Donato (1813-1870)  [u:ef8ec85b36]in the second half of XIX century.
[/u:ef8ec85b36]
The title of DUKE of San Donato referring to the village of SAN DONATO
DI NINEA in south of Italy, in the Calabria region, near the border
whit the Basilicata (ancient Lucania) region, and [u:ef8ec85b36]was
granted to Scipione Sanseverino in 1602![/u:ef8ec85b36]
The two titles are completely independents and have nothing to do each
other.
S. Rossi
Post Scriptum. For your information: in Italy exists dozens of
villages -towns holding the name of San Donato....
It is obviously to rename this thread by precising which SD is meant!
vegemite
2008-03-09 22:32:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Turenne
Post Script
None of his Spanish titles are on any Spanish titular register
Richard
I'm sorry Richard, but that's mean's nothing. There are presentl
hundreds of titles originally granted by spanish kings to italia
peoples, and the 99,99 % are not in the Spanish titular register
This happend beacuse the title was granted by spanish kings, bu
during the gouvernment of the Italian states (like Naples, Mila
etc.) and they went under the control of the many monarch that rule
Italy AFTER the spanish
regard
S. Ross
vegemite
2008-03-10 16:08:36 UTC
Permalink
(vegemite
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by vegemite
And, tell me because I really can't underdstand
fro
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by vegemite
when nicknames in the web must b
considered fake identitites
:shock
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Yes, you pretended that you used false names as
"nickname" the las
Post by m***@btinternet.com
time you were caught out using fake identities
If your name is, say, "Marco Lupis" but you are generall
known a
Post by m***@btinternet.com
"Loopy", that's a nickname
If you then sign posts from various email addresses as "S
Rossi" an
Post by m***@btinternet.com
"Steven Loyd" and "Jack Baschon" an
"Antoine Andrra", that's usin
Post by m***@btinternet.com
fake identities
I predict your next move will be to descend to low-leve
obscenities
Post by m***@btinternet.com
it's what you usually do when caught out
Kind regards, Michae
I'm sorry, but I haven't got the pleasure to know all those people
you are referring to. But speaking in theory, I'm afraid to tell Yo
that you are totally wrong. That's could be treated as usin
SOCKPUPPETS on the web, not certainly FAKE IDENTITIES

And you are using SOCKPUPPETS too, at least her

On the contrary, here I'm wrting using a single name. Mine
Regard
S. Ross
m***@btinternet.com
2008-03-10 21:38:41 UTC
Permalink
I'm sorry, but I haven't got the pleasure to know all those peoples
you are referring to. But speaking in theory, I'm afraid to tell You
that you are totally wrong. That's could be treated as using
SOCKPUPPETS on the web, not certainly FAKE IDENTITIES.
And you are using SOCKPUPPETS too, at least here
Yawn. More fantasy. I take clear personal responsibility for every
statement I make and have never used any other name or email address
than this.

You, on the other hand, have appeared from nowhere, never having
posted to usenet before this thread, using a style remarkably similar
to the hydra-headed poseur who is its subject, and who is documented
as having employed a long list of fake names and email addresses to
make it look like he has support other than himself.

I'm sorry, but it is therefore only reasonable to suppose that you are
the same individual under yet another fake name.
On the contrary, here I'm wrting using a single name. Mine.
Regards
S. Rossi
aka

Antoine Andrra
Antonius Severida
Aristide
Arsandri
Duke Marco Lupis
Ernesto Taveneses Calcaterra de Saleida
Jack Baschon
M. de la Fayette
Marc Antoine Andrra
Marco Lupis Macedonio Palermon di Santa Margherita
MN
MLS
Nosferamus
Olitwist
Pedro Aldonco
S.
Saluzzo
Sito Lupis
Steven Loyd

and, I suppose, "Vegemite"

Kind regards, Michael [real name; ask anyone here]
m***@btinternet.com
2008-03-10 22:17:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@btinternet.com
I recently came across this Wikipedia article on the Italian Dukes of
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_or_Duchess_San_Donato
There is also an article on someone who presently claims this title,
"HE Don Marco Lupis Macedonio Palermo of the Princes of Santa
HE Marquis Don Marco Lupis Macedonio Palermo di Santa Margherita de
Luna d'Aragona Sanseverino di Càlvera, 13th Duke of San Donato, 12th
Duke of Grottolelle, 14th Marquis of Tortora, 11th Marquis of
Ruggiano, 10th Marquis of Oliveto, 8th Marquis of Capriglia, Marquis
of Villa, Count Palatine, 13th Baron of Poligori, 12th Baron of
Castania and Cuzzoghieri, 16th Baron of Policastrello, 12th Baron of
Roggiano, 16th Baron of Càlvera, 20st Baron of Giungano, 9th Baron of
Rutino and Monteforte, Baron of Bisaccia, Baron of the Corrija of
Badolato, Baron of Amato, 16th Lord of dé Mattarellis, 17th Lord of
the Cilento Forest, 11th Lord of the Nisida Island, Feudal Lord of
Grotteria joint with Siderno, Martone, San Giovanni and annexed lands,
and of half fief of Ragusia (Gioiosa Jonica), Noble of Princes of
Santa Margherita and Santo Stefano, Noble of Marquises of Calorendi,
Noble of Barons of Martini, Mili, Capodarso, Bulgarano etc, Hereditary
Patrician of Giovinazzo, Hereditary Patrician of Amantea, Hereditary
Patrician of Messina, Hereditary Patrician of Antiochia etc.
What credibility attaches to these claims?
OK, let's ask another question.

In a thread elsewhere on usenet last May, Marco Lupis (using several
aliases and fake identities) attempted to provide documentation for
his claims.

These included a page from the "Libro d'Oro" of the Italian nobility,
which he posted to his website:

http://www.genmarenostrum.com/mlupis/Lupis%20Libro%20d'oro.pdf

Unfortunately, this link is no longer functional. However, at the
time it was noted that it shows Lupis has an elder brother (a
geologist by avocation), and the question was asked why he had not
inherited the titles; his parents married in 1953 and he was born in
1960, so the brother was presumably born between 1953 and 1960.

Lupis ignored the questions, going on the abuse those who asked them.
A review of his website now shows that the elder brother has been
airbrushed out, with Lupis being shown as the eldest son (generation
L1):

http://www.genmarenostrum.com/pagine-lettere/letteral/Lupis/Lupis.html

(By the way, I note that, according to the same website, Marco Lupis
claims to be the President of the "Scientific Editorial Committee" of
the Libro d'Oro "of the Mediterranean Nobility". He has also sprung a
Doctorate from somewhere, as he is now "Dott." amongst his other
styles and titles).

MA-R
vegemite
2008-03-11 13:26:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
I recently came across this Wikipedia article on the Italia
Dukes o
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
San Donato, allegedly scions of the Norman kings of Sicily
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_or_Duchess_San_Donat
There is also an article on someone who presently claims thi
title
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
"HE Don Marco Lupis Macedonio Palermo of the Princes o
Sant
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Margherita"
The full style and titles claimed for the 'Duke' are
HE Marquis Don Marco Lupis Macedonio Palermo di Santa Margherit
d
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Luna d'Aragona Sanseverino di Càlvera, 13th Duke of San Donato
12t
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Duke of Grottolelle, 14th Marquis of Tortora, 11th Marquis o
Ruggiano, 10th Marquis of Oliveto, 8th Marquis of Capriglia
Marqui
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
of Villa, Count Palatine, 13th Baron of Poligori, 12th Baron o
Castania and Cuzzoghieri, 16th Baron of Policastrello, 12th Baro
o
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Roggiano, 16th Baron of Càlvera, 20st Baron of Giungano, 9t
Baron o
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Rutino and Monteforte, Baron of Bisaccia, Baron of the Corrij
o
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Badolato, Baron of Amato, 16th Lord of dé Mattarellis, 17th Lor
o
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
the Cilento Forest, 11th Lord of the Nisida Island, Feudal Lor
o
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Grotteria joint with Siderno, Martone, San Giovanni and annexe
lands
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
and of half fief of Ragusia (Gioiosa Jonica), Noble of Prince
o
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Santa Margherita and Santo Stefano, Noble of Marquises o
Calorendi
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Noble of Barons of Martini, Mili, Capodarso, Bulgarano etc
Hereditar
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Patrician of Giovinazzo, Hereditary Patrician of Amantea
Hereditar
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Patrician of Messina, Hereditary Patrician of Antiochia etc
What credibility attaches to these claims
OK, let's ask another question
In a thread elsewhere on usenet last May, Marco Lupis (usin
severa
Post by m***@btinternet.com
aliases and fake identities) attempted to provide documentatio
fo
Post by m***@btinternet.com
his claims
These included a page from the "Libro d'Oro" of th
Italian nobility
Post by m***@btinternet.com
which he posted to his website
http://www.genmarenostrum.com/mlupis/Lupis%20Libro%20d'oro.pd
Unfortunately, this link is no longer functional. However, at th
time it was noted that it shows Lupis has an elder brother (
geologist by avocation), and the question was asked why he had no
inherited the titles; his parents married in 1953 and he was bor
i
Post by m***@btinternet.com
1960, so the brother was presumably born between 1953 and 1960
Lupis ignored the questions, going on the abuse those who aske
them
Post by m***@btinternet.com
A review of his website now shows that the elder brother has bee
airbrushed out, with Lupis being shown as the eldest so
(generatio
Post by m***@btinternet.com
L1)
http://www.genmarenostrum.com/pagine-lettere/letteral/Lupis/Lupis.htm
Post by m***@btinternet.com
(By the way, I note that, according to the same website, Marc
Lupi
Post by m***@btinternet.com
claims to be the President of the "Scientific Editoria
Committee" o
Post by m***@btinternet.com
the Libro d'Oro "of the Mediterranean Nobility". He ha
also sprung
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Doctorate from somewhere, as he is now "Dott." amongs
his othe
Post by m***@btinternet.com
styles and titles)
MA-
You must be such a odious person..
your contributions speak for you, once again, in this case also

It is more than evident that you are not really interested on thi
matter, but you only got some kind of personal problem whit th
claimant, and you want to spread your venom here

You must also be a person whit a very weak intelligence.... and I'l
explain why

FIRST: you demostrate one more time that you are absolutely ignoran
in any kind of italian culture and also language and about the vast
majority of the italian affairs

If not, you will certainly must known that in Ital
every people that finish the University and got a
university degree are styled whit the title o
"dottore" (doctor) and got the right to the public use
it

You also should must noted that the "libro d'Oro della Nobilt
Italiana" edition wich you are referring to in the link yo
indicated, it is dated as "1986-1989 edition", in othe
words, published more than 20 years ag


At the time of publication of the edition, the claimant, mr. Lupis
should be 23-24 years hold (considering that he is born in 1960 and
that the datas for the "Libro d'oro" are usually collected
by the publisher at least one or two years before the
publications).

In your weak intelligence, did you absolutely haven't imagined that he
can finish the university and got his doctorate [b:7fd7628904]in the
meantime[/b:7fd7628904]!?

Because this is exactly what happend, and he is doctorate in
"Lettere Moderne" (Italian Literature) and specialised in
Art History, and got his degree and subsequent specialisation in
1987. And the right to be siled as "Dott."!

SECOND: As we seen the article about the noble Lupis family in the
"Libro d'Oro della Nobiltà Italiana" you cited, is dated
more than 20 years ago.
(by the way, searching in the web, this is an updated anf fonctional
link: http://www.lupis.it/Lupis%20Libro%20d'oro.pdf)

If you have checked some more recent edition of the "Libro
dOro", you could discovered that the claimant mr Lupis obtained
a recogniction from the Italian Authorities ("Decreto del
Ministro della Giustizia e successivo decreto del Consiglio di
Stato") of HIS right to use and to join to his surname the
surnamens of the noble families of the MACEDONIO (dukes of
Grottolelle, marquises of Ruggiano, Tortora etc, as indicated) and
PALERMO (princes of Santa Margherita and Santo Stefano etc,), and you
should known that [u:7fd7628904]the elder brother signed a formal and
complete renonciation of EVERY of his own rights about the alleged
SURNAMES and TITLES in favour of his brother Marco, whit public act
on 1999 ("Con atto pubblico, nel 1999 rinuncia alla successione
e alla cognomizzazione in favore del fratello")![/u:7fd7628904]
And for this reason the claimant got the exclusive right to inherit
the titles!

All this informations are clearly reported in the same link you cited
(whit the name and "status" of the elder brother too...!)
http://www.genmarenostrum.com/pagine-lettere/letteral/Lupis/Lupis.html

Finally, if you was really able to read italian language, as you
declared, you should had read that the claimant mr Lupis got the
right to the San Donato ducal title only very recently, after the
death of his mother, on 2003! For this reason he can't never be
indicated as Duke of San Donato in a "Libro d'Oro Editon"
more than 20 years ago, whit your mother still living!

Regards
S. Rossi


Post Scriptum: I'm afraid for you, but I'm not the claimant mr. Lupis,
neither any other "strange" person you are referring to...
I'm simply a lady that last year got her doctorate in History at the
Italian University whit a doctorate relation (italian: "Tesi
di dottorato") about the Sanseverino family, dukes of San
Donato.
Turenne
2008-03-11 19:55:10 UTC
Permalink
I notice that the president of 'INDICE DELLE FAMIGLIE NOBILI DEL
MEDITERRANEO' is the 'XIII duca di San Donato, dott. don Marco,
marchese Lupis Macedonio Palermo dei principi di Santa Margherita'

http://www.genmarenostrum.com/storia/Successione_San_Donato.html

How convenient....

Richard Lichten
vegemite
2008-03-11 23:49:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by vegemite
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
I recently came across this Wikipedia article on the Italia
Dukes o
Post by vegemite
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
San Donato, allegedly scions of the Norman kings of Sicily
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_or_Duchess_San_Donat
There is also an article on someone who presently claims thi
title
Post by vegemite
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
"HE Don Marco Lupis Macedonio Palermo of the Princes o
Sant
Post by vegemite
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Margherita"
The full style and titles claimed for the 'Duke' are
HE Marquis Don Marco Lupis Macedonio Palermo di Sant
Margherita d
Post by vegemite
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Luna d'Aragona Sanseverino di Càlvera, 13th Duke of San Donato
12t
Post by vegemite
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Duke of Grottolelle, 14th Marquis of Tortora, 11th Marquis o
Ruggiano, 10th Marquis of Oliveto, 8th Marquis of Capriglia
Marqui
Post by vegemite
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
of Villa, Count Palatine, 13th Baron of Poligori, 12th Baro
o
Post by vegemite
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Castania and Cuzzoghieri, 16th Baron of Policastrello, 12t
Baron o
Post by vegemite
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Roggiano, 16th Baron of Càlvera, 20st Baron of Giungano, 9t
Baron o
Post by vegemite
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Rutino and Monteforte, Baron of Bisaccia, Baron of the Corrij
o
Post by vegemite
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Badolato, Baron of Amato, 16th Lord of dé Mattarellis, 17t
Lord o
Post by vegemite
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
the Cilento Forest, 11th Lord of the Nisida Island, Feudal Lor
o
Post by vegemite
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Grotteria joint with Siderno, Martone, San Giovanni and annexe
lands
Post by vegemite
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
and of half fief of Ragusia (Gioiosa Jonica), Noble of Prince
o
Post by vegemite
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Santa Margherita and Santo Stefano, Noble of Marquises o
Calorendi
Post by vegemite
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Noble of Barons of Martini, Mili, Capodarso, Bulgarano etc
Hereditar
Post by vegemite
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Patrician of Giovinazzo, Hereditary Patrician of Amantea
Hereditar
Post by vegemite
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Patrician of Messina, Hereditary Patrician of Antiochia etc
What credibility attaches to these claims
OK, let's ask another question
In a thread elsewhere on usenet last May, Marco Lupis (usin
severa
Post by vegemite
Post by m***@btinternet.com
aliases and fake identities) attempted to provide documentatio
fo
Post by vegemite
Post by m***@btinternet.com
his claims
These included a page from the "Libro d'Oro" of th
Italian nobility
Post by vegemite
Post by m***@btinternet.com
which he posted to his website
http://www.genmarenostrum.com/mlupis/Lupis%20Libro%20d'oro.pd
Unfortunately, this link is no longer functional. However, a
th
Post by vegemite
Post by m***@btinternet.com
time it was noted that it shows Lupis has an elder brother (
geologist by avocation), and the question was asked why he ha
no
Post by vegemite
Post by m***@btinternet.com
inherited the titles; his parents married in 1953 and he was bor
i
Post by vegemite
Post by m***@btinternet.com
1960, so the brother was presumably born between 1953 and 1960
Lupis ignored the questions, going on the abuse those who aske
them
Post by vegemite
Post by m***@btinternet.com
A review of his website now shows that the elder brother ha
bee
Post by vegemite
Post by m***@btinternet.com
airbrushed out, with Lupis being shown as the eldest so
(generatio
Post by vegemite
Post by m***@btinternet.com
L1)
http://www.genmarenostrum.com/pagine-lettere/letteral/Lupis/Lupis.htm
Post by vegemite
Post by m***@btinternet.com
(By the way, I note that, according to the same website, Marc
Lupi
Post by vegemite
Post by m***@btinternet.com
claims to be the President of the "Scientific Editoria
Committee" o
Post by vegemite
Post by m***@btinternet.com
the Libro d'Oro "of the Mediterranean Nobility". H
has also sprung
Post by vegemite
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Doctorate from somewhere, as he is now "Dott." amongs
his othe
Post by vegemite
Post by m***@btinternet.com
styles and titles)
MA-
You must be such a odious person..
your contributions speak for you, once again, in this case also
It is more than evident that you are not really interested on thi
matter, but you only got some kind of personal problem whit th
claimant, and you want to spread your venom here
Post by vegemite
You must also be a person whit a very weak intelligence.... an
I'll explain why
Post by vegemite
FIRST: you demostrate one more time that you are absolutel
ignorant in any kind of italian culture and also language and abou
the vaste majority of the italian affairs
Post by vegemite
If not, you will certainly must known that in Ital
every people that finish the University and got a
university degree are styled whit the title o
"dottore" (doctor) and got the right to the public use
it
Post by vegemite
You also should must noted that the "libro d'Oro della Nobilt
Italiana" edition wich you are referring to in the link you
indicated, it is dated as "1986-1989 edition", in other
words, published more than 20 years ago
!
Post by vegemite
At the time of publication of the edition, the claimant, mr. Lupis,
should be 23-24 years hold (considering that he is born in 1960 and
that the datas for the "Libro d'oro" are usually collected
by the publisher at least one or two years before the
publications).
Post by vegemite
In your weak intelligence, did you absolutely haven't imagined that
he can finish the university and got his doctorate [b:4b74615a79]in
the meantime[/b:4b74615a79]?
Post by vegemite
Because this is exactly what happend, and he is doctorate in
"Lettere Moderne" (Italian Literature) and specialised in
Art History, and got his degree and subsequent specialisation in
1987. And the right to be styled as "Dott."
Post by vegemite
SECOND: As we seen before, the article about the noble Lupis family
in the "Libro d'Oro della Nobiltà Italiana" you cited, is
dated more than 20 years ago.
Post by vegemite
(by the way, searching in the web, this is an updated and
fonctional link: http://www.lupis.it/Lupis%20Libro%20d'oro.pdf)
Post by vegemite
If you have checked some more recent edition of the "Libro
dOro", you could discovered that the claimant mr Lupis obtained
a recogniction from the Italian Authorities
("Decreto del Ministro della Giustizia e
successivo decreto del Consiglio di Stato") of
HIS right to use and to join to his surname the surnamens of the
noble families of the MACEDONIO (dukes of Grottolelle, marquises of
Ruggiano, Tortora etc, as indicated) and PALERMO (princes of Santa
Margherita and Santo Stefano etc,), and you should known that
[u:4b74615a79]the elder brother signed a formal and complete
renonciation of EVERY rights about the alleged SURNAMES and TITLES
in favour of his brother Marco, whit public act on 1999
("[i:4b74615a79]Con atto pubblico, nel 1999 rinuncia alla
successione e alla cognomizzazione in favore del
fratello[/i:4b74615a79]") [/u:4b74615a79] And for this reason
the claimant got the exclusive right to inherit the titles.
Post by vegemite
All this informations are clearly reported in the same link you
cited (whit the name and "status" of the elder brother
too...)
http://www.genmarenostrum.com/pagine-lettere/letteral/Lupis/Lupis.html
Post by vegemite
Finally, if you was really able to read italian language, as you
declared, you should had read that the claimant mr Lupis got the
right to the San Donato ducal title only very recently, after the
death of his mother, on 2003. For this reason he can't never be
indicated as Duke of San Donato in a "Libro d'Oro Editon"
more than 20 years ago, whit your mother still living.
Post by vegemite
Regards
S. Rossi
Post Scriptum: I'm afraid for you, but I'm not the claimant mr.
Lupis, neither any other "strange" person you are referring
to...
Post by vegemite
I'm simply a lady that last year got her doctorate in History at
the Italian University whit a doctorate relation (italian:
"[i:4b74615a79]Tesi di dottorato[/i:4b74615a79]") about the
Sanseverino family, dukes of San Donato.
m***@btinternet.com
2008-03-12 07:43:29 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 12, 10:49 am, ***@email-dot-it.no-spam.invalid (vegemite)
wrote:
 
I am not anonymous; I sign each and every one of my usenet posts with
my real name and email address.
Post by m***@btinternet.com
OK, let's ask another question.
In a thread elsewhere on usenet last May, Marco Lupis (using several
aliases and fake identities) attempted to provide documentation for
his claims. These included a page from the "Libro d'Oro" of the
http://www.genmarenostrum.com/mlupis/Lupis%20Libro%20d'oro.pdf
 
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Unfortunately, this link is no longer functional.  However, at the time it
was noted that it shows Lupis has an elder brother (a geologist by
avocation), and the question was asked why he had not inherited the;
titles; his parents married in 1953 and he was born in 1960, so the brother
was presumably born between 1953 and 1960.
(snip; something you need to learn to do, by the way)
You are getting confused; *you* are "Vegemite", not me.
You must be such a odious person...
Thanks; that ad hominem is a very useful addition to this discussion,
and advances your case enormously. I note is is the typical response
of Marco Lupis, whom you claim not to be.
your contributions speak for you, once again, in this case also. It is more
than evident that you are not really interested on this matter, but you only
got some kind of personal problem whit the claimant, and you want to
spread your venom here.
You must also be a person whit a very weak intelligence
Wow, more useful abuse - thanks, that's helpful. Remember, "your
contributions speak for you"...
FIRST: you demostrate one more time that you are absolutely
ignorant in any kind of italian culture and also language and about
the vaste majority of the italian affairs.
Shucks, your English is pretty poor too, but don't let that worry you.

(snip)
You also should must noted that the "libro d'Oro della Nobiltà Italiana"
edition wich  you are referring to in the link you indicated, it is dated as
"1986-1989 edition", in other words, published more than 20 years ago!
At the time of publication of the edition, the claimant, mr. Lupis, should
be 23-24 years hold (considering that he is born in 1960 and that the datas
for the "Libro d'oro" are usually collected by the publisher at least one or  
two years before the publications).
(snip of more "scholarly" personal abuse)
SECOND: As we seen before, the article about the noble Lupis family in
the "Libro d'Oro della Nobiltà Italiana" you cited,  is dated more than 20
years ago. If you have checked some more recent edition of the "Libro
dOro", you could discovered that the claimant mr Lupis obtained a
recogniction from the Italian Authorities ("Decreto del Ministro della
Giustizia e successivo decreto del Consiglio di Stato") of HIS right to use
and to join to his surname  the surnamens of the noble families of the
MACEDONIO (dukes of Grottolelle, marquises of Ruggiano, Tortora etc,
as indicated) and PALERMO (princes of Santa Margherita and Santo
Stefano etc,),
Yes, I realise he changed his name to adopt that of some ancient noble
family. If I wanted, I could change my name to Fidel Castro, but it
wouldn't make me Cuban.
and you should known that the elder brother signed a formal and complete
renonciation of EVERY  rights about the alleged SURNAMES and TITLES
in favour of his brother Marco, whit public act  on 1999 ("Con atto pubblico,
nel 1999 rinuncia alla successione e alla cognomizzazione in favore del
fratello") And for this reason the claimant got the exclusive  right to inherit
the titles.
No, I didn't realise this. Thank you for finally advancing this
assertion, for what it is worth. Actually addressing the questions I
raised makes a pleasant change from the irrelevancies and abuse you
have hitherto advanced.
All this informations are clearly reported in the same link you cited (whit the
name and "status" of the elder brother too...)
http://www.genmarenostrum.com/pagine-lettere/letteral/Lupis/Lupis.html
I did not cite that link.
Finally, if you was really able to read italian language, as you declared, you
should had read that the claimant mr Lupis got the right to the San Donato
ducal title only very recently, after the death of his mother, on 2003. For this
reason he can't never be indicated as Duke of San Donato in a "Libro d'Oro
Editon" more than 20 years ago, whit your mother still living.
Actually, I am perfectly aware of when the late Mrs Lupis passed
away. This merely shows that the material offered as "proof" of the
current claimant being a Duke is useless, as it predates his claims by
20 years.

It seems we can conclude from your responses to date that Marco Lupis
changed his name, and *claims* a range of titles - but these claims
are not recognised by any official body. Their validity is therefore
"in the eye of the beholder".
Regards
S. Rossi
Post Scriptum: I'm afraid for you, but I'm not the claimant mr.
Lupis, neither any other "strange" person you are referring to...
That's strange, because you write and behave just like him. Same
CAPITALISATIONS and misplaced use of apostrophes; same tendency
towards personal abuse. And Mr Lupis once stated on usenet in a
discussion about his use of fake IDs that a good Italian alias would
be "Rossi". Funny, huh? If you haven't met, I think you should,
because I suspect you two would 'click'.
I'm simply a lady that last year got her doctorate in History at
the Italian University whit a doctorate relation  (italian: "Tesi di
dottorato") about the Sanseverino family, dukes of San Donato.
Thank you for sharing your research and insights, "Doctor Rossi".

Kind regards

Michael Andrews-Reading
m***@btinternet.com
2008-03-13 11:32:18 UTC
Permalink
A stylistic analysis:

(1) "whit" instead of "with"
you only got some kind of personal problem whit [sic] the claimant
AND
You must also be a person whit [sic] a very weak intelligence
AND
university degree are styled whit [sic] the title of "dottore"
Compare with these from this thread on soc.genealogy.medieval last
year:

http://groups.google.com.au/group/soc.genealogy.medieval/browse_thread/thread/86727a5e4c4c91fa/cdc940ddeb9b98f7?hl=en&lnk=gst&q=baschon#
I'm sorry but I' can't agree whit [sic] you.
I attached the link whit [sic] the abstract of the "Libro d'oro"
whit [sic] a 6.000 - books library
(2)
..."Regio Decreto" on 5th October 1888, those rights was recognized
to the di Leo Sanseverino descendants by the former Kingdom of Italy.
(see: "Genealogia di Ercole Sanseverino, barone di Calvera, e suoi
discendenti", Napoli 1902, and "Illustrazioni dell'albero genealogico della
famiglia Cianci di Leo Sanseverino", Napoli 1906).
..."Regio Decreto" on 5th October 1888 those rights was recognized
by the former Kingdom of Italy. (see: "Genealogia di Ercole Sanseverino,
barone di Calvera, e suoi discendenti", Napoli 1902, and "Illustrazioni dell'albero
genealogico della famiglia Cianci di Leo Sanseverino", Napoli 1906)
This two statements are almost word-for-word identical.

We can add to this:

(a) Marco Lupis's track record for using fake names and false IDs -
see on the thread from last May cited above, at entries #4 and #9,
where he used two email addresses, signing the first as "Jack Baschon"
and then accidentally using the 'MLS" one that he admit is his own but
which he also signed "Jack. Oops! And then at #27 he signs "M" for
Marco but used an email address under the name 'Andrra'.

(b) His penchant for CAPITALISATIONS, and his modus of attempting to
deflect criticism by (i) abusing the critic, (ii) googling the critic
to find any criticism of him, and (iii) accusing the critic of using a
fake name.

It is pretty clear that "Doctor Rossi" and Marco Lupis are one and the
same.

To cap it, on 9 May 2007, 11.23 am, Marco Lupis posting as "Andrra"
wrote in response to an earlier critic:

"Ps: Just curious: [That] is a real name or a "nom de plume"? It sound
like "Mario Rossi" in Italy.

MA-R
vegemite
2008-03-13 05:43:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@btinternet.com
I recently came across this Wikipedia article on the Italian Duke
o
Post by m***@btinternet.com
San Donato, allegedly scions of the Norman kings of Sicily
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_or_Duchess_San_Donat
There is also an article on someone who presently claims thi
title
Post by m***@btinternet.com
"HE Don Marco Lupis Macedonio Palermo of the Princes of Sant
Margherita"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marco_Lupi
The former article was largely written by a single-interes
contributor called "Nosferamus", while the latter wa
written b
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Nosferamus and another single-interest individual calle
"Olitwist"
Post by m***@btinternet.com
who had created it
The full style and titles claimed for the 'Duke' are
HE Marquis Don Marco Lupis Macedonio Palermo di Santa Margherita d
Luna d'Aragona Sanseverino di Càlvera, 13th Duke of San Donato
12t
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Duke of Grottolelle, 14th Marquis of Tortora, 11th Marquis o
Ruggiano, 10th Marquis of Oliveto, 8th Marquis of Capriglia
Marqui
Post by m***@btinternet.com
of Villa, Count Palatine, 13th Baron of Poligori, 12th Baron o
Castania and Cuzzoghieri, 16th Baron of Policastrello, 12th Baro
o
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Roggiano, 16th Baron of Càlvera, 20st Baron of Giungano, 9th Baro
o
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Rutino and Monteforte, Baron of Bisaccia, Baron of the Corrija o
Badolato, Baron of Amato, 16th Lord of dé Mattarellis, 17th Lord o
the Cilento Forest, 11th Lord of the Nisida Island, Feudal Lord o
Grotteria joint with Siderno, Martone, San Giovanni and annexe
lands
Post by m***@btinternet.com
and of half fief of Ragusia (Gioiosa Jonica), Noble of Princes o
Santa Margherita and Santo Stefano, Noble of Marquises o
Calorendi
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Noble of Barons of Martini, Mili, Capodarso, Bulgarano etc
Hereditar
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Patrician of Giovinazzo, Hereditary Patrician of Amantea
Hereditar
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Patrician of Messina, Hereditary Patrician of Antiochia etc
What credibility attaches to these claims
Cheers, Michael Andrews-Readin
I'm afraid you got problem
Reading :lol: not only Italia
language, but English too... despite of the second part of your fak
names... [i:0ef8763de5]mister michael-reading something
[/i:0ef8763de5

You wrote. "I realize he changed his name to adopt that of som
ancient nobl
family.

Once again you understand nothing.

I didn't write he changed his name, I wrote:
"obtained a recognition from the Italian Authoritie
("[i:0ef8763de5]Decreto del Ministro dell
Giustizia e successivo decreto del Consiglio d
Stato[/i:0ef8763de5]") of HIS right to us
and to joi
to his surname the surnames of th
two noble families of th
-MACEDONIO (dukes of Grottolelle, marquises of Ruggiano, Tortora etc
as indicated) and PALERMO (princes of Santa Margherita and Sant
Stefano etc,)

To join to, not to chang

To be granted to join a surname, under the Italian Law, it's
[u:0ef8763de5]very complex and difficult procedure[/u:0ef8763de5]
request must be [u:0ef8763de5]well motivated an
documented[/u:0ef8763de5] and it cost a lot of time and effort

The only reasons accepted by law for joining surnames ar
[i:0ef8763de5]proved and documented risks of extinction of th
surnames[/i:0ef8763de5] the claimant ask to join, an
[i:0ef8763de5]must be proved the historical importance of the famil
surnames.[/i:0ef8763de5

For this reasons the final recognition is granted by a Decree signe
by the President of the Italian Republic and the Minister of Justice


To join surnames is an historically established and well practiced us
between the Italian nobility (and not only Italian) to preserve th
memory of the historical families that became extinct

Italian legislation also - despite Italy is now a Republic - recogniz
the right to "[i:0ef8763de5]cognomizzare un predicat
nobiliare[/i:0ef8763de5]", make part of the surname of the nam
of the fief that was owned as feudal title by the family

This was exactly the case of the "di Santa Margherita" tha
the duke Lupis obtained to became part of his surnames, referred t
the small town of Santa Margherita near Messina in Sicily, owned a
fief by the Palermo family whit the princely title





I perfectly understand that you are trying to introduce confusion
here, because you are short of arguments.
But what I wrote it's perfectly understandable:

1) - The Lupis family was already a very old noble family, branch of
the ancient marquises of Soragna, as you must have read on the
"Libro d'oro della Nobiltà Italiana" edition". The
family is included in the main nobiliary Italian almanacs,
"[i:0ef8763de5]Libro d'Oro della Nobiltà
Italiana[/i:0ef8763de5]", "[i:0ef8763de5]Albo d'Oro delle
famiglie Nobili e notabili Italiane ed europee[/i:0ef8763de5]",
"[i:0ef8763de5]Elenco dei titolati italiani[/i:0ef8763de5]"
and more. The family is also present in many web site, like
"Nobili Napoletani"
http://www.nobili-napoletani.it/Macedonio.htm; "Decano Nobiliare
Calabrese
http://digilander.libero.it/caccia_alla_volpe/l_dec_nob_cal.html
etc.


If you are able to read Italian language, as you declared, why you
wasn't able to read this in the same link to the "Libro d'Oro
della Nobiltà Italiana" edition, already cited?
(http://www.lupis.it/Lupis%20Libro%20d'oro.pdf)


2) - The claimant got the right [i:0ef8763de5]to join
to[/i:0ef8763de5] his surname (already a noble surname) the surnames
of the [i:0ef8763de5]Macedonio[/i:0ef8763de5] and
[i:0ef8763de5]Palermo[/i:0ef8763de5], not because some day he woke up
from his bed and said [i:0ef8763de5]"Oh, I like this surnames....
I want to join them to mine!"[/i:0ef8763de5], but in force of
the fact, recognized by Italian authorities, that he is the unique
descendant of those families (Macedonio dukes of Grottolelle and
Palermo prince of Santa Margherita).

And precisely because donna Lauretana Macedonio, (1797 - 1838) 7th
duchess of Grottolelle etc. - that was the last of the Macedonio
family and was his [u:0ef8763de5]paternal[/u:0ef8763de5] direct
ancestor - married the marquis don Isidoro II Lupis Manso Amato de
Luna d'Aragona (1781 - 1853). The couple got the marquis don Orazio
III Lupis Macedonio (b. 1830), (married whit donna Clementina
Guerrisi Floccari, b. 1832) from when the marquis don Giovanni Lupis
Macedonio (1865 - 1936), married whit donna Dorotea Palermo of Princes
of Santa Margherita and Santo Stefano (1863 - 1936) - her too
[u:0ef8763de5]the last of the Palermo prince of Santa Margherita
family[/u:0ef8763de5] - and from that couple born the marquis don
Orazio IV Lupis Macedonio Palermo di Santa Margherita (1892-1962) ,
General of the Italian army, and grand-father of Marco Lupis.

So, did you understand now, or you will try to confuse once again this
post ?


I resume once again:
Marco Lupis got from the Italian authorities the right
[i:0ef8763de5]to join to[/i:0ef8763de5] (and not to change) his
surname those surnames (Macedonio and Palermo), because he is the
direct descendant of those two families that became extinct into his
family thought the two direct ancestors, donna Dorotea Palermo dei
principi di Santa Margherita, mother of his
[u:0ef8763de5]paternal[/u:0ef8763de5] grand-father (the General
Orazio Lupis etc.), and donna Lauretana Macedonio, 7th duchess of
Grottolelle etc, grand-mother of the same
[u:0ef8763de5]paternal[/u:0ef8763de5] grand-father, General Orazio
Lupis etc.

Once again: If you are able to read Italian language, as you declared,
why you wasn't able to read those informations in the same link cited?
(http://www.genmarenostrum.com%2Fpagine-lettere%2Fletteral%2FLupis%2FLupis.html)


3) The title of duke of San Donato have nothing to do whit this,
because come [i:0ef8763de5]from [u:0ef8763de5]maternal[/u:0ef8763de5]
and not paternal[/i:0ef8763de5] side to the claimant. As we seen, in
force of the death of his mother, on 2003.
And the late claimants mother, was the 12th Duchess of San Donato
because she was the direct descendant of don Mario Sanseverino, 4th
duke of San Donato, and on 17th January 1759 the San Donato ducal
title was transferred by "testament" from him to her unique
daughter, donna Vittoria Sanseverino di Calvera, 5th Duchess of San
Donato, and then, in marriage to the di Leo family, (who held the
subsidiary titles of Barons).
And with "Regio Decreto" on 5th October 1888, those rights
was recognized to the di Leo Sanseverino descendants by the former
Kingdom of Italy. (see: "Genealogia di Ercole Sanseverino,
barone di Calvera, e suoi discendenti", Napoli 1902, and
"Illustrazioni dell'albero genealogico della famiglia Cianci di
Leo Sanseverino", Napoli 1906).
(English version:
http://www.genmarenostrum.com/storia/Succession_San_Donato.html;
Italian version:
http://www.genmarenostrum.com/storia/Successione_San_Donato.html;
Genealogy (in Italian:
http://www.genmarenostrum.com/pagine-lettere/letteras/SANSEVERINO/SANSEVERINO4.htm)


Those informations are verifiable [i:0ef8763de5]facts, sources,
documents and books.[/i:0ef8763de5]

You can continue to "dance a boogy-woogy" here with your
free-spreaded-venom, tryng to insulte, denigrate and confuse things
as you are used to be (see below), but facts, sources, documents and
books will remain.

By the way, because of the fact that in Italy no longer exist the
monarchy, the right of this title must be seen as a claim, as we said
from the beginning of this discussion.

Regards

S. Rossi (real name, sorry!)


Ps concerning "my poor English" as you wrote, you could be
entitled to criticize my English only after you have proved to be
able to write in Italian at least at the same level of my
"poor" English!
And you are not.

Post-Post Scriptum. Oh, I almost forgot...

I'm afraid, but the only [b:0ef8763de5]fake[/b:0ef8763de5] here seem's
to be [size=18:0ef8763de5][b:0ef8763de5]you
[/b:0ef8763de5][/size:0ef8763de5]

In my knowledge, you are nobody, coming from no were.

Searching your alleged "real" name on Internet, can come to
same very interesting site, like this:

" Mr. Michael Andrews-Reading -- who are you?"
http://www.royalgenes.biz/alt.talk.royalty/thread320.html

whit some very interesting paragraph addressed to you (citations):

- "Who does
this guy think he is?"

- "Remember... confession is good for the soul."

Searching in Internet, in other words, clearly emerge [u:0ef8763de5]no
informations[/u:0ef8763de5] about any real Michael Andrew-Readings

On the contrary, surfing on Internet, emerged [i:0ef8763de5]a
lot[/i:0ef8763de5] of people you insulted and denigrated from
longtime. I'ts seems to be your main and unique pleasure in your
life, to insult and denigrate peoples.

Once again: who are you? As it is more than evident that you like so
much to be "exposed" on the web with your
"imperative" sentences in the genealogical and nobiliary
matters, why you don't have a personal web site, maybe just to
"share" whit us, (poor mortal beings, writing such a poor
English :lol:) , your precious sentences about those arguments?

You prefer to stay carefully hidden under you fake identity, of
course.
I can understand why.

On the contrary, the claimant Mr. Lupis - that you are trying to
injure, insult and denigrate in any way on the web, is a real person
and never needs to hide himself.

He is a well-known and reputed Italian journalist
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marco_Lupis)

Due of my doctorate researches, I had the pleasure to know him and his
marvellous wife and childrens in person, during a beautiful meeting at
his 500 years old Family mansion
(http://www.lupis.it/palazzo%20lupis%20-%20de%20luna%20d'aragona.htm)
, that he still own and live whit his family, encircled by his
ancestors portraits, stones arms etc. I got the privilege too to get
free access to the family library and archive in the Lupis Palace,
holding more that 8.000 books and some original documents about his
family dated at the XVI century.


And you, mister michael-reading something.... once again, who are you?
m***@btinternet.com
2008-03-13 09:55:16 UTC
Permalink
On Feb 29, 6:24 pm, ***@btinternet.com wrote:

Let's try again, without the polemics.
Post by m***@btinternet.com
HE Marquis Don Marco Lupis Macedonio Palermo di Santa Margherita de
Luna d'Aragona Sanseverino di Càlvera, 13th Duke of San Donato, 12th
Duke of Grottolelle, 14th Marquis of Tortora, 11th Marquis of
Ruggiano, 10th Marquis of Oliveto, 8th Marquis of Capriglia, Marquis
of Villa, Count Palatine, 13th Baron of Poligori, 12th Baron of
Castania and Cuzzoghieri, 16th Baron of Policastrello, 12th Baron of
Roggiano, 16th Baron of Càlvera, 20st Baron of Giungano, 9th Baron of
Rutino and Monteforte, Baron of Bisaccia, Baron of the Corrija of
Badolato, Baron of Amato, 16th Lord of dé Mattarellis, 17th Lord of
the Cilento Forest, 11th Lord of the Nisida Island, Feudal Lord of
Grotteria joint with Siderno, Martone, San Giovanni and annexed lands,
and of half fief of Ragusia (Gioiosa Jonica), Noble of Princes of
Santa Margherita and Santo Stefano, Noble of Marquises of Calorendi,
Noble of Barons of Martini, Mili, Capodarso, Bulgarano etc, Hereditary
Patrician of Giovinazzo, Hereditary Patrician of Amantea, Hereditary
Patrician of Messina, Hereditary Patrician of Antiochia etc.
What credibility attaches to these claims?
I am prepared to assume that these titles had some original validity -
ie they were each created at some point by a real fons honorum. I am
also prepared to believe that each has fallen under the jurisdiction
of the Italian state [ie the united Italian monarchy] regardless of
the state of creation.

We have seen that Mr Lupis claims these titles on the basis that (a)
the original families have become extinct, and (b) he has put himself
forward as an heir, and (c) (at least) his elder brother has foregone
what would have been his superior claims.

In support of these claims, Mr Lupis states he has satisfied the
Italian authorities of the above.

However, my original query remains: how valid are these claims? I
know how Spanish titles pass - but none of these is registered as a
Spanish title.

Can Italian titles such as these pass by will, or by nomination within
families? Are they subject to limitations or remainders?

We are told there was a Royal Decree of 1888 recognising them. Why
are they apparently not listed in the 1922 Elenco?

Kind regards, Michael
vegemite
2008-03-13 15:29:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Let's try again, without the polemics
Good! But very odd... In this message you finall
state you will to try to avoid polemics and , after few hours, yo
write two more super-polemic message that remain completely useles
for a civil confrontations
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Anyway, I'll forced myself to ignore those message and simpl
reply to this one
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
The full style and titles claimed for the 'Duke' are
HE Marquis Don Marco Lupis Macedonio Palermo di Santa Margherit
d
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Luna d'Aragona Sanseverino di Càlvera, 13th Duke of San Donato
12t
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Duke of Grottolelle, 14th Marquis of Tortora, 11th Marquis o
Ruggiano, 10th Marquis of Oliveto, 8th Marquis of Capriglia
Marqui
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
of Villa, Count Palatine, 13th Baron of Poligori, 12th Baron o
Castania and Cuzzoghieri, 16th Baron of Policastrello, 12th Baro
o
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Roggiano, 16th Baron of Càlvera, 20st Baron of Giungano, 9t
Baron o
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Rutino and Monteforte, Baron of Bisaccia, Baron of the Corrij
o
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Badolato, Baron of Amato, 16th Lord of dé Mattarellis, 17th Lor
o
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
the Cilento Forest, 11th Lord of the Nisida Island, Feudal Lor
o
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Grotteria joint with Siderno, Martone, San Giovanni and annexe
lands
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
and of half fief of Ragusia (Gioiosa Jonica), Noble of Prince
o
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Santa Margherita and Santo Stefano, Noble of Marquises o
Calorendi
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Noble of Barons of Martini, Mili, Capodarso, Bulgarano etc
Hereditar
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Patrician of Giovinazzo, Hereditary Patrician of Amantea
Hereditar
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Patrician of Messina, Hereditary Patrician of Antiochia etc
What credibility attaches to these claims
I am prepared to assume that these titles had some origina
validity
Post by m***@btinternet.com
ie they were each created at some point by a real fons honorum.
a
Post by m***@btinternet.com
also prepared to believe that each has fallen under th
jurisdictio
Post by m***@btinternet.com
of the Italian state regardles
o
Post by m***@btinternet.com
the state of creation
[b:0597649da2]All those arguments are true and proved. Ever
independent scholars in those matters, can confir
this.[/b:0597649da2]
Post by m***@btinternet.com
We have seen that Mr. Lupis claims these titles on the basis tha
(a
Post by m***@btinternet.com
the original families have become extinct, and (b) he has pu
himsel
Post by m***@btinternet.com
forward as an heir, and (c) (at least) his elder brother ha
foregon
Post by m***@btinternet.com
what would have been his superior claims
In support of these claims, Mr. Lupis states he has satisfied th
Italian authorities of the above
[b:0597649da2]Exactly[/b:0597649da2
However, my original query remains: how valid are these claims?
know how Spanish titles pass - but none of these is registered a
Spanish title
[b:0597649da2]That's not completely true.
As we seen at the beginning of this topics, many of the claime
titles are originally listed as "[i:0597649da2]Título
nobiliarios concedidos por Monarcas españoles e
Nápoles", "Titles conceded by Spanish King
as Kings of Naples"
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Must consider that when, in the Italian History, Spanish Kings (bu
non only Spanish, i.e. Austrian, Venetian republic etc.) create
title acting as rulers of the Italian kingdom of Naples (or in Mila
too), those titles where not registered as "Spanis
titles", because no longer refer to Spanish citizens
Post by m***@btinternet.com
In Italy the vast majority of the existent titles are originall
conceded by "aliens" (not Italian) Kings (or "fon
honorum").
Post by m***@btinternet.com
All those titles went under the jurisdiction of the subsequen
rulers of Italy, including in some sort, the actual Italian Republic
at least for the matters concerned the use of noble surnames and th
recognition of the "[i:0597649da2]predicat
nobiliari[/i:0597649da2]" as part of the surnames, as I alread
explained. To obtain this, for the Italian law, the claimant mus
proved that his family got the official right to the title related t
the "predicato" "before the year 1922
Post by m***@btinternet.com
This is clearly stated in the "[i:0597649da2]XIV disposizion
transitoria della Costituzione Italiana[/i:0597649da2]" tha
literally said: [i:0597649da2]"I predicati riconosciuti prim
del 1922 valgono come parte del cognome[/i:0597649da2]".
Post by m***@btinternet.com
In the case we are are discussing here, it's refer to the
"[i:0597649da2]di Santa Margherita[/i:0597649da2]"
"[i:0597649da2]predicato[/i:0597649da2]", that it been
recognized to Mr.. Lupis in the two cited sentences because the same
mar. Lupis proved with documents that it was recognized to his direct
ancestor (in this particular to the Palermo family) as princely title
([i:0597649da2]principi di Santa Margherita[/i:0597649da2], today a
fraction of the town of Messina, see:
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Margherita_%28Messina%29).[/b:0597649da2]
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Can Italian titles such as these pass by will, or by nomination
within
Post by m***@btinternet.com
families? Are they subject to limitations or remainders?
[b:0597649da2]THAT'S is a very complex and interesting question.
In general, can say that [i:0597649da2]it's depends
of how they are originally created[/i:0597649da2].
Post by m***@btinternet.com
For example, speaking about some of the main titles claimed here,
like the ducal and marchional titles granted to the Macedonio family.
About the title of Duke of Grottolelle (today the village of
Post by m***@btinternet.com
I'm sorry, but it is too complicate for me to entirely translate
this part. As you assured us that you are able to read Italian, I
Post by m***@btinternet.com
"Nelle clausole dell'investitura del titolo duca di
Grottolelle, del Re Filippo IV di Spagna il 4 giu 1646,
[u:0597649da2]si stabiliva che il concessionario potesse sempre
regolare la successione con atto testamentario [/u:0597649da2] e tale
successione venne infatti regolata, in base a quel privilegio, prima
dell'abolizione della feudalità, dalla quale poteva emanare soltanto
sul diritto successorio, con il testamento del 6° (e ultimo della
linea napoletana) Duca di Grottolelle dal 1805, Don Francesco
Macedonio e Berio di Salza (* Napoli 4-9-1783 + ivi 4-4-1834), che
fissava la successione "in perpetuum" a favore della linea
maschile primogenita, e in mancanza a favore della linea collaterale
agnatizia maschile.
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Successivamente, [u:0597649da2]con clausola testamentaria aggiunta
poco prima della morte[/u:0597649da2], nel 1834,avendo avuto soltanto
due figli gemelli morti in fasce, il duca istituiva unico erede del
titolo di duca di Grottolelle il cugino don Nicola Saverio Macedonio,
(6° barone di Poligori in Calabria; Vice Principe di Roccella nel
1790) (1760 - aft. 1834) ([i:0597649da2]direct ancestor of Mr. Marco
Lupis, ndr.[/i:0597649da2]) , rappresentante primogenito dell'unica
linea agnatizia superstite dei Macedonio, essendosi tutte le altre
estinte agli inizi dell'Ottocento, il quale gli succedeva per
[i:0597649da2]Surrogazione[/i:0597649da2]."
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Hope you can understood. Trying to resume, in the original
concession of this title it is granted, to the first duke,
[u:0597649da2]the right to decide by will the
succession[/u:0597649da2]. And the last duke of the Neapolitan line,
by will dated 1834, decided to "ask for the succession" his
cousin, direct ancestor of Mr. Lupis, because he got no surviving
children's.
Post by m***@btinternet.com
A similar same case happened for the ducal title of San Donato,
when the 4th duke, don Mario Sanseverino (7th direct ancestor of the
late mother of Mr. Lupis) decoide by will to "ask for the
succession" his unique daughter, Donna Vittoria Sanseverino, and
from her the direct line of succession ended into the claimant late
mother.[/b:0597649da2]
Post by m***@btinternet.com
We are told there was a Royal Decree of 1888 recognizing them.
Why
Post by m***@btinternet.com
are they apparently not listed in the 1922 Elenco?
[b:0597649da2]One more interesting question, very complex too and
It is commonly well-known that the 1922 elenco it is not completed
in any way.
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Many-many family with proved nobility are not included there
Reasons are many. In particular, concerning the nobility of South
of Italy (ex kingdom o Naples and Sicily) the VAST MAJORITY never
asked for a recognition by the dynasty that subsequent ruled Italy,
the Savoia Kings, because still consider them as "invasors"
and want to maintain fidelity to the Bourbons dynasty of Naples.
Post by m***@btinternet.com
About the specific ducal title of San Donato, it's even more
complex, because for this title, in the XVII century, two families
"fought" for the recognition of the title: the original
Sanseverino family and his direct decsendants (from whom the claimant
Mr. Lupis directly descend) and the Ametrano-Sambiase family that
subsequently bought the San Donato fief. And in some moments of this
"war", we can seen two different lines/family that got two
recognition on the same title. Abnormal situations like this are not
uncommon in the history of Italian titles, some more examples can be
seen, but now is better to "point" to this case of
"double" succession.
Post by m***@btinternet.com
I'll try to explain the case, that it's really a complex case.
After the death of the last direct duchess of San Donato, Anna
Sanseverino (at the age of 9), the Crown of Naples sold the fief only
([i:0597649da2]not including the title - with the "formula":
"extinto titulo"[/i:0597649da2]) of San Donato, to the
Ametrano family.
Post by m***@btinternet.com
But Mario Sanseverino, the nearest cousin of duchess Anna, clime it
for himself, referring to an old "privilegio" accorded and
confirmed many times to the Sanseverino by the Kings of Naples stated
that only the same Sanseverino's can decide the succession of the
titles granted to them. ""in quantumcunque remotus etiam
decimo et ulteriori gradu ex quacumque linea trasversali, adscendenti
seu descendenti... Et inter ipsos de cognomine de Sancto Severino
progenitura et gradus servatur..." .
Post by m***@btinternet.com
As we already seen, with "Regio Decreto" on 5th October
1888, those rights was recognized by the former Kingdom of Italy.
(see: "Genealogia di Ercole Sanseverino, barone di Calvera, e
suoi discendenti", Napoli 1902, and "Illustrazioni
dell'albero genealogico della famiglia Cianci di Leo
Sanseverino", Napoli 1906) to Mr.. Lupis direct ancestor.
Post by m***@btinternet.com
But those facts originated in effect two legal claims for the San
Donato title, both legal and recognized.
Post by m***@btinternet.com
One referring to the Ametrano-Sambiase descendants, that BOUGHT the
fief, without any "blood" relation whit the Sanseverino. An
other referring to the (Mario) Sanseverino-del Mercato-Lebano
descendants, that INHERITED the title by direct "blood"
connection with the Sanseverino.
Post by m***@btinternet.com
In any case, the "anomaly" stated below, were finally
"resolved" in favor of the last line of succession
(Sanseverino-del Mercato-Lebano) because of the death, without
children's, of the last representant of the first line of succession
(Ametrano-Sambiase), don Ladislao Sambiase, duke of Malvito and
prince of Bonifati, born in Naples 14th February 1881 (and succeeded
to his brother Paolo + 7 February. 1929), that got no children from
his marriage whit Margherita Nardi (see "Libro d'oro della
Nobiltà Italiana", ediz. XX, vol. XXII, 1990-1994, pag. 538)
Post by m***@btinternet.com
So, after the final extinction of the "other" line of
succession, the "double" anomaly ended in favor of the line
of succession today represented by the claimant Mr.
Lupis[/b:0597649da2]
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Kind regards, Michael
Regards too, Silvia
Turenne
2008-03-13 18:34:33 UTC
Permalink
It is commonly well-known that the 1922 elenco it is not completed in any way.....
That may be so, but the Libro d'Oro, on which you seem to rely,
consists largely of exaggerated accounts of the alleged antiquity and
prominence of families who do not in some cases deserve recognition.
The President of The Libro d'Oro's president is himself a claimant to
a dukedom (and other titles) which are suspect (San Donato etc etc ).
It's very easy to influence the content of a compendium of Italian
nobility, if you are the president of the company that publishes it!

Richard Lichten
m***@btinternet.com
2008-03-13 22:02:37 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 14, 2:29 am, ***@email-dot-it.no-spam.invalid (vegemite)
wrote:

(snip)
 > In any case, the "anomaly" stated below, were finally
"resolved" in favor of the last line of succession
(Sanseverino-del Mercato-Lebano) because of the death, without
children's, of the last representant of the first line of succession
(Ametrano-Sambiase), don Ladislao Sambiase, duke of Malvito and
prince of Bonifati, born in Naples 14th February 1881 (and succeeded
to his brother Paolo + 7 February. 1929), that got no children from
his marriage whit Margherita Nardi (see "Libro d'oro della
Nobiltà Italiana", ediz. XX, vol. XXII, 1990-1994, pag. 538)
 >
 > So, after the final extinction of the "other" line of
succession, the "double" anomaly ended in favor of the line
of succession today represented by the claimant Mr.
Lupis[/b:0597649da2]
Thank you - sincerely - for that.

I guess the crux of the problem is this: I see no evidence that any of
the recent ancestors of the current claimant used or claimed any of
the titles. Did they?

It seems to me that some of these titles have been "extinct" for many
years (centuries perhaps), and it is the current claimant who has
decided to start using them.

The current state of affairs in Italty - where titles are not
adjudicated upon - is both helpful and unhelpful to his position.
Helpful, in that it seems anyone can adopt the use of titles.
Unhelpful, in that in cases such as these coonsiderable doubts may
remain about the validity of their use.

Would not the safest route be to ask for recognition from the Spanish
Crown - I understand that they would still fall within its competence
in terms of determining claimants?

Regards, Michael
vegemite
2008-03-13 21:13:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Turenne
Post by m***@btinternet.com
It is commonly well-known that the 1922 elenco it is no
completed in any way....
Post by Turenne
That may be so, but the Libro d'Oro, on which you seem to rely
consists largely of exaggerated accounts of the alleged antiquit
an
Post by Turenne
prominence of families who do not in some cases deserv
recognition
Post by Turenne
The President of The Libro d'Oro's president is himself a claiman
t
Post by Turenne
a dukedom (and other titles) which are suspect (San Donato etc et
)
Post by Turenne
It's very easy to influence the content of a compendium of Italia
nobility, if you are the president of the company that publishe
it
Post by Turenne
Richard Lichte
Dear Richard, you seem's to be a bit confused... (same as you di
before whit the two San Donato titles...

- the "Libro d'Oro della Nobiltà Italiana" it is publishe
from more that 100 years by the "Collegio Araldico" in Rom
(http://www.collegio-araldico.it/) also under the Italian Monarchy
It is commonly considered a better Italian publication and the mor
reputed in this matters

The claimant's Lupis noble family was published from longtim
on this publication! And the pdf
(http://www.lupis.it/Lupis%20Libro%20d'oro.pdf) is coming from thi
publication

- the "Libro d'Oro della Nobiltà Mediterranea
(http://www.genmarenostrum.com) is a web based collection of th
genealogies of the families of the Mediterranean area. It is
web-project, and the claimant is the president o
[b:8f1022cb29]this[/b:8f1022cb29] project, a monumental work (whe
finished) that hope to publish on the web all the genealogies of th
families of the Mediterranean Countries
For a complete informations, must also say that the claiman
is not the president of the wol
project, but he is the president of a
[i:8f1022cb29]Editorial Scientific Committe[/i:8f1022cb29
(http://www.genmarenostrum.com/comitato.htm), made of three mor
members and four collaborators

Hope that now the "confusion" is cleared..

cheer

S. Ross
Turenne
2008-03-13 21:29:53 UTC
Permalink
- the "Libro d'Oro della Nobiltà Italiana" it is published
from more that 100 years by the "Collegio Araldico" in Rome
(http://www.collegio-araldico.it/) also under the Italian Monarchy.
It is commonly considered a better Italian publication and the more
reputed in this matters.
Who is the 'president' of the "Libro d'Oro della Nobiltà
Mediterranea?"

Richard Lichten
m***@btinternet.com
2008-03-13 21:51:07 UTC
Permalink
The claimant's Lupis noble family was published from longtime
on this publication! And the pdf
(http://www.lupis.it/Lupis%20Libro%20d'oro.pdf) is coming from this
publication!
The problem with this is quite straightforward. Here is the genealogy
as per the Libro d'Oro that you cite as "evidence" or "proof" of your
multitude of ducal and lesser titles:

1. Don Giovanni III Lupis Macedonio Guarrisi (1865-1936), married 1891
Donna Dorotea Palermo (1863-1936), daughter of Nob. Don Nicedemo
Palermo dei pr. di Santa Margherita, by his wife Nob. Donna Rosa
Macedonio. Issue:

2. Brig-Gen. Orazio Nicodemo Nicola Lupis Macedonio Palermo di Santa
Margherita (1892-1962), Kt of the Order of SS Maurice & Lazarus;
married 1924 Giulia Cipriani. Issue:

3. Giovanni Giuseppe Maria, born 1928, doctor of engineering; married
1stly 1953 [div. 1972] Marina Lebano Carucci, daughter of Raffaele (an
advocate) by his wife Nob. Emilia Carucci Capone; married 2ndly 1980
Lea Acerbi. Issue by first marriage:

4a. Orazio Raffaele Raimondo Rosario, born 1954
4b. Marco Luca Lorenzo Rosario, born 1960

Not one single individual named in this published pedigree bears a
noble title - not one. No Dukes of San Donato, or any of the rest.

This is why the current claims look like a fantasy.

We have been told that the various titles were originally Spanish
creations, and pass in accordance with the Spanish rules - yet none of
these titles has a Spanish registration.

I have yet to see any evidence that Mr Lupis is a Duke, Marquis etc.

MA-R
vegemite
2008-03-14 02:11:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
On Mar 14, 8:13 am, marco lupis posting as vegemit
The claimant's Lupis noble family was published fro
longtim
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
on this publication! And the pd
(http://www.lupis.it/Lupis%20Libro%20d'oro.pdf) is comin
from thi
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
publication
The problem with this is quite straightforward. Here i
the genealog
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
as per the Libro d'Oro that you cite a
"evidence" or "proof" of you
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
multitude of ducal and lesser titles
1. Don Giovanni III Lupis Macedonio Guarrisi (1865-1936)
married 189
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Donna Dorotea Palermo (1863-1936), daughter of Nob. Do
Nicedem
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Palermo dei pr. di Santa Margherita, by his wife Nob. Donn
Ros
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Macedonio. Issue
2. Brig-Gen. Orazio Nicodemo Nicola Lupis Macedonio Palerm
di Sant
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Margherita (1892-1962), Kt of the Order of SS Maurice
Lazarus
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
married 1924 Giulia Cipriani. Issue
3. Giovanni Giuseppe Maria, born 1928, doctor o
engineering; marrie
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
1stly 1953 [div. 1972] Marina Lebano Carucci, daughter o
Raffaele (a
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
advocate) by his wife Nob. Emilia Carucci Capone; marrie
2ndly 198
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Lea Acerbi. Issue by first marriage
4a. Orazio Raffaele Raimondo Rosario, born 195
4b. Marco Luca Lorenzo Rosario, born 196
Not one single individual named in this published pedigre
bears
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
noble title - not one. No Dukes of San Donato, or any o
the rest
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
This is why the current claims look like a fantasy
We have been told that the various titles were originall
Spanis
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
creations, and pass in accordance with the Spanish rules
yet none o
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
these titles has a Spanish registration
I have yet to see any evidence that Mr. Lupis is a Duke
Marquis etc
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by m***@btinternet.com
MA-
Dear Michael,
Thank you too - sincerely - for that! For come-back to
civil confrontation
Post by m***@btinternet.com
I intend to reply here to both your last messages
What you are read is only partially correct. For example
you are not noted that the father of Donna Dorotea Palerm
(1863-1936), is clearly stated as: "Nob. Don Nicodemo Palerm
dei pr. di Santa Margherita"
"[b:e267dae59b]of Princes of Sant
Margherita[/b:e267dae59b]
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Anyway, the fact that not all the titles are reported,
depend of the fact that the Lupis family it is published on th
second part of the "Libro d'Oro". I'll try to explain mor
Post by m***@btinternet.com
As every ones can read in the "preface" of ever
edition of "Libro d'Oro della Nobilt
italiana" (undersigned for Richar
Lichten... :D ) the book is divided in two sections: in the firs
section is where there are published the Italian noble families tha
"got a formal recognition of his right by the "Consult
Araldica" , and in the second part the family that "even i
haven't got a formal recognition, they are in possession of th
"perfect noble status"
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Will be better if I'll quote the paragraph in Italian
FAMIGLIE NOBILI ITALIANE - non iscritte negli elench
ufficiali della consulta araldica
Post by m***@btinternet.com
In questa seconda parte sono comprese quelle famiglie che
non essendo iscritte negli Elenchi ufficial
Nobiliari, [u:e267dae59b]pure avrebbero potut
ottenere il riconoscimento dei titoli nobiliari[/u:e267dae59b]. Ess
avevano tempestivamente presentato istanza alla Consulta Araldica ch
provvide a dar regolare corso all'istruttoria, la quale non pot
formalmente concretarsi in provvedimento di giustizia per
sopravvenuti eventi politici
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Sono in questa parte anche comprese [b:e267dae59b]le famigli
in cui favore sono emanati decreti reali [/b:e267dae59b]di
concessione, o di rinnovazione, o [b:e267dae59b]di riconoscimento[ di
indubbia autenticità, ma non potuto perfezionare a causa delle vicende
politiche o istituzionali/b] (that's exactly the case of the claim of
San Donato title, by the Lupis family: remember the "Regio
Decreto"?, ndr.) (omissis).
Post by m***@btinternet.com
[u:e267dae59b]Sono anche comprese le famiglie nobili che, con
sentenza dell'autorità giudiziaria , in sede civile, passata in
giudicato, hanno ottenuto l'attribuzione di titoli nobiliari
[/u:e267dae59b] (one more case for the claimant family, that obteined
from Italian civil Authorities the two sentences we already seen and
discussed, ndr.) (omissis) e le famiglie la cui documentazione
probatoria nobiliare è stata sottoposta al più severo e scrupoloso
esame da parte del Collegio Araldico
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Hope this quotation can be fully understandable.
In this second part, due of the reasons stated before, the
publishers of "Libro d'Oro della Nobiltà Italiana" choose
to not "enter" into any claim and avoid to publish ANY
title.
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Despite of this, you must have noted that, in the
"historical introduction" to the Lupis family, it is
Post by m***@btinternet.com
"La famiglia usa "ab antiquo" il titolo di
barone (m. - means "for every male - not the firstborn only),
quello di Patrizio di Giovinazzo (m) (hereditary patrician of
Giovinazzo) ed il trattamento di Don e Donna"
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Must also say that, in every official documents provided by Mr..
Lupis to the Italian Authorities, hit is clearly stated that his
direct ancestor ever made a large and continuous use of the (actually
claimed) titles.
(vegemite)
Post by m***@btinternet.com
(snip)
In any case, the "anomaly" stated below, were
finally
Post by m***@btinternet.com
"resolved" in favor of the last line of succession
(Sanseverino-del Mercato-Lebano) because of the death, without
children's, of the last representant of the first line of
succession
Post by m***@btinternet.com
(Ametrano-Sambiase), don Ladislao Sambiase, duke of Malvito and
prince of Bonifati, born in Naples 14th February 1881 (and
succeeded
Post by m***@btinternet.com
to his brother Paolo + 7 February. 1929), that got no children
from
Post by m***@btinternet.com
his marriage whit Margherita Nardi (see "Libro d'oro della
Nobiltà Italiana", ediz. XX, vol. XXII, 1990-1994, pag.
538)
Post by m***@btinternet.com
So, after the final extinction of the "other"
line of
Post by m***@btinternet.com
succession, the "double" anomaly ended in favor of the
line
Post by m***@btinternet.com
of succession today represented by the claimant Mr.
Lupis[/b:0597649da2]
Thank you - sincerely - for that.
I guess the crux of the problem is this: I see no evidence that any
of
Post by m***@btinternet.com
the recent ancestors of the current claimant used or claimed any
of
Post by m***@btinternet.com
the titles. Did they?
It seems to me that some of these titles have been
"extinct" for many
Post by m***@btinternet.com
years (centuries perhaps), and it is the current claimant who has
decided to start using them.
The current state of affairs in Italy - where titles are not
adjudicated upon - is both helpful and unhelpful to his position.
Helpful, in that it seems anyone can adopt the use of titles.
Unhelpful, in that in cases such as these considerable doubts may
remain about the validity of their use.
Would not the safest route be to ask for recognition from the
Spanish
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Crown - I understand that they would still fall within its
competence
Post by m***@btinternet.com
in terms of determining claimants?
Regards, Michael
Maybe you right.

But, please, onsider that the Mr.. Lupis claim - in Mr... Lupis point
of view - rest a substantially [b]historically and
moral[/b:e267dae59b] claiming.
He should consider enough for him to have proved in front of the civil
Authorities of his country, his documented direct descendancy from the
direct ancestor in favor of whom those titles was granted, and to have
proved his genealogy and the documented fact that he is the only one
that have the right to claim those title.

Despite of this, your suggestion to ask for a formal recognition under
the Spanish Crown could be a valid suggestion, and I'm aware that
Mr.Lupis already thought about it.

But we know that it could be a very complicate, expensive and maybe
very complex route.

And also - even if , in effect, the vast majority of the title he
claimed, are originally Spanish titles, I will not be so sure that
such kind of "petizione" will be accepted by Spanish crown,
because of the fact that the claimant its' not a Spanish citizen.

Unfortunately, the present situation of those matters in Italy remain
very frustrating, because of the lack of "fons honorum" or
other "way" to obtain official recognition. It is commonly
accepted that the only possible way could only be pursued into the
route choosed by Mr.. Lupis, asking the actual highest civil
authorities, to certifies his descend and related rights, "well
resumed" by a formal recognition to "hold" the noble
surnames added.

Thank in advance, Michael, for every comments and/or further
suggestion

S. Rossi
m***@btinternet.com
2008-03-14 09:46:51 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 14, 1:11 pm, ***@email-dot-it.no-spam.invalid (vegemite)
wrote:

(snip)
Post by vegemite
Despite of this, your suggestion to ask for a formal recognition under
the Spanish Crown could be a valid suggestion, and I'm aware  that
Mr.Lupis already thought about it.
But we know that it could be a very complicate, expensive and maybe
very complex route.
And also - even if , in effect, the vast majority of the title he
claimed, are originally Spanish titles, I will not be so sure that
such kind of "petizione" will be accepted by Spanish crown,
because of the fact that the claimant its' not  a Spanish citizen.
Richard may be able to shed some further light on this - I think he
has access to a schedule of current fees for Spanish noble petitions.
As you say, it is probably an expensive exercise.

Michael
Turenne
2008-03-14 14:52:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Richard may be able to shed some further light on this - I think he
has access to a schedule of current fees for Spanish noble petitions.
As you say, it is probably an expensive exercise.
Happy to oblige:

(Ley del Impuesto sobre Transmisiones Patrimoniales y Actos Jurídicos
Documentados, 20 de octubre de 1993).

Transmisiones directas (children, grandchildren, etc.)
1.° Por cada título con grandeza ... 2444 EURO
2.° Por cada grandeza sin título ... 1747 EURO
3.° Por cada título sin grandeza ... 697 EURO

Transmisiones transversales (nephews, cousins, etc.)
1.° Por cada título con grandeza ... 6126 EURO
2.° Por cada grandeza sin título ... 4380 EURO
3.° Por cada título sin grandeza ... 1747 EURO

Rehabilitaciones y reconocimiento de títulos extranjeros
1.° Por cada título con grandeza ... 14688 EURO
2.° Por cada grandeza sin título ... 10486 EURO
3.° Por cada título sin grandeza ... 4203 EURO

Richard
vegemite
2008-03-14 16:50:11 UTC
Permalink
(vegemite
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by vegemite
(snip
Despite of this, your suggestion to ask for a formal recognitio
unde
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by vegemite
the Spanish Crown could be a valid suggestion, and I'm aware
tha
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by vegemite
Mr.Lupis already thought about it
But we know that it could be a very complicate, expensive an
mayb
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by vegemite
very complex route
And also - even if , in effect, the vast majority of the titl
h
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by vegemite
claimed, are originally Spanish titles, I will not be so sur
tha
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by vegemite
such kind of "petizione" will be accepted by Spanis
crown
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Post by vegemite
because of the fact that the claimant its' not a Spanis
citizen
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Richard may be able to shed some further light on this - I thin
h
Post by m***@btinternet.com
has access to a schedule of current fees for Spanish nobl
petitions
Post by m***@btinternet.com
As you say, it is probably an expensive exercise
Michae
Thanks Michael. Will be of high interest to know more from Richar
about this matter

Kind regard

Silvi
vegemite
2008-03-14 16:50:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Turenne
Post by m***@btinternet.com
Richard may be able to shed some further light on this -
think h
Post by Turenne
Post by m***@btinternet.com
has access to a schedule of current fees for Spanish nobl
petitions
Post by Turenne
Post by m***@btinternet.com
As you say, it is probably an expensive exercise
Happy to oblige
(Ley del Impuesto sobre Transmisiones Patrimoniales y Acto
Jurídico
Post by Turenne
Documentados, 20 de octubre de 1993)
Transmisiones directas (children, grandchildren, etc.
1.° Por cada título con grandeza ... 2444 EUR
2.° Por cada grandeza sin título ... 1747 EUR
3.° Por cada título sin grandeza ... 697 EUR
Transmisiones transversales (nephews, cousins, etc.
1.° Por cada título con grandeza ... 6126 EUR
2.° Por cada grandeza sin título ... 4380 EUR
3.° Por cada título sin grandeza ... 1747 EUR
Rehabilitaciones y reconocimiento de títulos extranjero
1.° Por cada título con grandeza ... 14688 EUR
2.° Por cada grandeza sin título ... 10486 EUR
3.° Por cada título sin grandeza ... 4203 EUR
Richar
Many thanks for your kindness Richard
Transmisiones transversales (nephews, cousins, etc.
3.° Por cada título sin grandeza ... 1747 EUR
because, in my knowledge, the claimed titles never included th
"Grandeza de Spagna"

Fee are not so "terrible" at last, (by the way, fe
indicated are 15 years old.. . today this fee might raised aroun
3'000 or more....) , but I imagine will be other expenses related t
the subsequent question

- Need someone to "sponsor" the request to the Spanis
Crown, like Layers or something similar, or the claimant can submi
his request directly, without any intermediaries?

Kind regard

Silvi
Turenne
2008-03-14 19:13:17 UTC
Permalink
Need someone to "sponsor" the request to the Spanish Crown, like Layers or something similar, or the claimant can submit his request directly, without any intermediaries?
The 'Real Decreto Legislativo' dates from 1993 but the overview was
valid in 2007 (Source: Elenco de grandezas (...) 2007)

Impuestos de Grandezas y Títulos del Reino

Artículo 43.

La rehabilitación y transmisión, sea por vía de sucesión o cesión, de
grandezas y títulos nobiliarios, así como el reconocimiento de uso en
España de títulos extranjeros, satisfarán los derechos consignados en
la escala adjunta.
Se considerarán transmisiones directas las que tengan lugar entre
ascendientes y descendientes o entre hermanos cuando la grandeza o el
título haya sido utilizado por alguno de los padres.
Se considerarán transmisiones transversales las que tengan lugar entre
personas no comprendidas en el párrafo anterior.
Se gravará la rehabilitación siempre que haya existido interrupción en
la posesión de una grandeza o título, cualquiera que sea la forma en
que se produzca, pero sin que pueda liquidarse en cada supuesto más
que un solo derecho al sujeto pasivo. Por esta misma escala tributará
el derecho a usar en España títulos pontificios y los demás
extranjeros.

http://www.scgenealogia.org/ienc/lex.htm

I think the applicant will need a lawyer. For example:

Sociedad Jurídica Nobiliaria
http://www.sjnobiliaria.com/

Servicios
http://www.sjnobiliaria.com/servicios.htm

Don Martín de Oleza y Peris is son-in-law of the late Marquesa de
Villasante, Condesa de Val del Águila.

Richard Lichten
vegemite
2008-03-15 02:42:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Turenne
Post by vegemite
Need someone to "sponsor" the request to the Spanis
Crown, like Layers or something similar, or the claimant can submi
his request directly, without any intermediaries
Post by Turenne
The 'Real Decreto Legislativo' dates from 1993 but the overvie
wa
Post by Turenne
valid in 2007 (Source: Elenco de grandezas (...) 2007
Impuestos de Grandezas y Títulos del Rein
Artículo 43
La rehabilitación y transmisión, sea por vía de sucesión o cesión
d
Post by Turenne
grandezas y títulos nobiliarios, así como el reconocimiento de us
e
Post by Turenne
España de títulos extranjeros, satisfarán los derechos consignado
e
Post by Turenne
la escala adjunta
Se considerarán transmisiones directas las que tengan lugar entr
ascendientes y descendientes o entre hermanos cuando la grandeza
e
Post by Turenne
título haya sido utilizado por alguno de los padres
Se considerarán transmisiones transversales las que tengan luga
entr
Post by Turenne
personas no comprendidas en el párrafo anterior
Se gravará la rehabilitación siempre que haya existido interrupció
e
Post by Turenne
la posesión de una grandeza o título, cualquiera que sea la form
e
Post by Turenne
que se produzca, pero sin que pueda liquidarse en cada supuest

Post by Turenne
que un solo derecho al sujeto pasivo. Por esta misma escal
tributar
Post by Turenne
el derecho a usar en España títulos pontificios y los demá
extranjeros
http://www.scgenealogia.org/ienc/lex.ht
I think the applicant will need a lawyer. For example
Sociedad Jurídica Nobiliari
http://www.sjnobiliaria.com
Servicio
http://www.sjnobiliaria.com/servicios.ht
Don Martín de Oleza y Peris is son-in-law of the late Marquesa d
Villasante, Condesa de Val del Águila
Richard Lichte
Thanks again Richard

I see the sites, and it seems to be a "possible" route
But I'm still afraid that this procedure is not possible fo
non-spanish citizen

Do you have knowledge of a non-spanish that succed on this procedure

Silvi
Turenne
2008-03-15 08:42:16 UTC
Permalink
I suggest you check with specialist solicitors. There are many
disputes in Spain over titles and succession, a good lawyer is a
neccessity.

El Supremo despoja del título a una baronesa y se lo da al hermano
menor
http://www.elpais.com/articulo/sociedad/Supremo/despoja/titulo/baronesa/da/hermano/menor/elpepisoc/19990301elpepisoc_1/Tes/

Se aprueba la ley de igualdad de sexos para los titulos nobiliarios
http://www.20minutos.es/noticia/163191/0/Igualdad/sexos/nobles/

"De la nueva reglamentación se excluyen los títulos de la Corona, los
vinculados al sucesor al Trono, y los de la Casa Real, que se regirán
por una normativa propia."
http://www.noticiasdegipuzkoa.com/ediciones/2006/11/02/sociedad/espana-mundo/d02esp13.357974.php

Richard Lichten
Turenne
2008-03-17 18:29:52 UTC
Permalink
Do you have knowledge of a non-spanish that succed on this procedure?
The late Prince de Ligne (died 2005) received a Dignidad de Grande de
España (19.I.1991). I think the was a Belgian citizen. Some current
holders of Spanish titles are certainly citizens of Latin american
countries.

Richard L
vegemite
2008-03-17 22:58:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Turenne
Post by vegemite
Do you have knowledge of a non-spanish that succed on thi
procedure
Post by Turenne
The late Prince de Ligne (died 2005) received a Dignidad de Grand
d
Post by Turenne
España (19.I.1991). I think the was a Belgian citizen. Som
curren
Post by Turenne
holders of Spanish titles are certainly citizens of Latin america
countries
Richard
Thanks for this supplement of information, Richard

I was aware of that, but I'm afraid the present case seems to be quit
different

Certainly there been non-Spanish citizen honored whit Spanish title
(like the prince de Ligne you cited), and can also happen that som
Spanish title, originally granted to a Spanish citizen, belon
actually to NON-Spanish
But, as I said, the case is different: a rehabilitation of a Spanis
title asked by a non-Spanish..
I don't know....

best regards and thanks agai

S. Ross
Turenne
2008-03-18 08:32:26 UTC
Permalink
The present Duque de Nochera is presumably an Italian citizen.

Don Filippo Balbo Bertone di Sambuy y Wagnière
b Rome 1956
4° Duque de Nochera (30.3.2005) GdE
18° Marqués de Castel-Rodrigo (30.3.2005) GdE de 1° clase
4° Conde de Lumiares (30.3.2005) (en España)

Perhaps you should contact him.

RL

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