The Duke of York's title

[maggie]

Hi,
I was just wondering if you could explain something for me. When the
Duke of York dies, what will happen to his title? Seeing as he has no
male heir, will Princess Beatrice of York inherit her father's title,
or must it still be a male who inherits such a title? Also, what will
happen to his daughters' titles when they are married?

Thanks so much!

[Gary Holtzman]

Post by maggie
Hi,
I was just wondering if you could explain something for me. When the
Duke of York dies, what will happen to his title? Seeing as he has no
male heir, will Princess Beatrice of York inherit her father's title,
or must it still be a male who inherits such a title? Also, what will
happen to his daughters' titles when they are married?

If the Duke dies without a son, the title will become extinct. Princess Beatrice will not
inherit the title because the succession to it is limited to male heirs. The princesses
titles on marriage depends on what their husbands' titles are. If either marries a king,
she will become queen. If, as is more likely, they marry anyone else, they will keep the
title of Princess, possibly with something added. For example, the Queen has a cousin
Princess Alexandra of Kent, who is married to the Hon. Lord Ogilvy. She is therefore
called HRH Princess Alexandra, the Hon. Lady Ogilvy.

You can find more information about the royal dukedoms and royal titles at the ATR FAQ.

[James D-T]

Post by maggie
Hi,
I was just wondering if you could explain something for me. When the
Duke of York dies, what will happen to his title?

snip. For example, the Queen has a cousin, Princess Alexandra of Kent, who is married to the Hon. Lord Ogilvy. She is therefore
called HRH Princess Alexandra, the Hon. Lady Ogilvy.

Actually, Princess Alexandra is married to The Rt. Hon. Sir Angus
Ogilvy, KCVO, PC. He is not a peer. As a PC, he uses "The Right
Honourable" for himself alone. Princess Alexandra uses "The Hon. Lady
Ogilvy", since Sir Angus is also the younger son of The Earl of
Airlie, and, as wife of a knight as well, uses the title of "Lady
Ogilvy"--only the last name.

[Gary Holtzman]

Post by James D-T

snip. For example, the Queen has a cousin, Princess Alexandra of
Kent, who is married to the Hon. Lord Ogilvy. She is therefore called
HRH Princess Alexandra, the Hon. Lady Ogilvy.

Actually, Princess Alexandra is married to The Rt. Hon. Sir Angus
Ogilvy, KCVO, PC. He is not a peer. As a PC, he uses "The Right
Honourable" for himself alone. Princess Alexandra uses "The Hon. Lady
Ogilvy", since Sir Angus is also the younger son of The Earl of
Airlie, and, as wife of a knight as well, uses the title of "Lady
Ogilvy"--only the last name.

I stand corrected. I knew it looked wrong as soon as I posted it.

[Sacha]

Post by Gary Holtzman

Post by James D-T

snip. For example, the Queen has a cousin, Princess Alexandra of
Kent, who is married to the Hon. Lord Ogilvy. She is therefore called
HRH Princess Alexandra, the Hon. Lady Ogilvy.

Actually, Princess Alexandra is married to The Rt. Hon. Sir Angus
Ogilvy, KCVO, PC. He is not a peer. As a PC, he uses "The Right
Honourable" for himself alone. Princess Alexandra uses "The Hon. Lady
Ogilvy", since Sir Angus is also the younger son of The Earl of
Airlie, and, as wife of a knight as well, uses the title of "Lady
Ogilvy"--only the last name.

I stand corrected. I knew it looked wrong as soon as I posted it.

Younger son of the LATE (12th) Earl of Airlie, while we're being pedantic.
;-)
Younger brother of the present Earl.

[Stan Brown]

Post by maggie
Hi,
I was just wondering if you could explain something for me. When the
Duke of York dies, what will happen to his title? Seeing as he has no
male heir, will Princess Beatrice of York inherit her father's title,
or must it still be a male who inherits such a title?

The dukedom of York has the usual "remainder" (rules of
inheritance), which means that only a male descended in the male
line from the present Duke of York can inherit his title. So his
daughters cannot inherit it, and neither could any of their sons. If
he dies without male issue, the dukedom reverts to the crown, which
may or may not re-grant it (as a new creation) to anyone else.

Post by maggie
Also, what will
happen to his daughters' titles when they are married?

Titles? I think you mean their _styles_ of "HRH Princess N of York",
which won't change. The "Mrs." with husband's name may be appended,
as was done with Princess Anne.

And no, someone who marries a princess does not automatically get
any special style or title, unlike someone who marries a prince or
peer.

You might like to skim our BritFAQ (URL below), which answers this
and many other questions.

[Michael Rhodes]

Post by Stan Brown

Post by maggie
Hi,
I was just wondering if you could explain something for me. When the
Duke of York dies, what will happen to his title? Seeing as he has no
male heir, will Princess Beatrice of York inherit her father's title,
or must it still be a male who inherits such a title?

The dukedom of York has the usual "remainder" (rules of
inheritance), which means that only a male descended in the male
line from the present Duke of York can inherit his title. So his
daughters cannot inherit it, and neither could any of their sons. If
he dies without male issue, the dukedom reverts to the crown, which
may or may not re-grant it (as a new creation) to anyone else.

Post by maggie
Also, what will
happen to his daughters' titles when they are married?

Titles? I think you mean their _styles_ of "HRH Princess N of York",
which won't change. The "Mrs." with husband's name may be appended,
as was done with Princess Anne.
And no, someone who marries a princess does not automatically get
any special style or title, unlike someone who marries a prince or
peer.
You might like to skim our BritFAQ (URL below), which answers this
and many other questions.

Pity that QEII cannot do an Edward VII and issue new letters patent
allowing the peerages to pass to Andrew's daughters, and their male
issue, in the event of no future sons, as in the case of the Fife
Dukedom.

[Louis Epstein]

Michael Rhodes <***@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
: Stan Brown <***@fastmail.fm> wrote in message news:<***@news.odyssey.net>...
:> In article <***@posting.google.com> in
:> alt.talk.royalty, maggie <***@hotmail.com> wrote:
:> >Hi,
:> >I was just wondering if you could explain something for me. When the
:> >Duke of York dies, what will happen to his title? Seeing as he has no
:> >male heir, will Princess Beatrice of York inherit her father's title,
:> >or must it still be a male who inherits such a title?
:>
:> The dukedom of York has the usual "remainder" (rules of
:> inheritance), which means that only a male descended in the male
:> line from the present Duke of York can inherit his title. So his
:> daughters cannot inherit it, and neither could any of their sons. If
:> he dies without male issue, the dukedom reverts to the crown, which
:> may or may not re-grant it (as a new creation) to anyone else.
:>
:> > Also, what will
:> >happen to his daughters' titles when they are married?
:>
:> Titles? I think you mean their _styles_ of "HRH Princess N of York",
:> which won't change. The "Mrs." with husband's name may be appended,
:> as was done with Princess Anne.
:>
:> And no, someone who marries a princess does not automatically get
:> any special style or title, unlike someone who marries a prince or
:> peer.
:>
:> You might like to skim our BritFAQ (URL below), which answers this
:> and many other questions.


: Pity that QEII cannot do an Edward VII and issue new letters patent
: allowing the peerages to pass to Andrew's daughters, and their male
: issue, in the event of no future sons, as in the case of the Fife
: Dukedom.

Much as I would like to see there be more hereditary
creations in the UK,I would very much prefer that they
never again have remainders limited to heirs-male!
Especially in the Royal Family,which has never had such
rules and could thus have people in a branch ahead of
its titleholder in the succession.

Why has HM never moved to heirs-general creations?
(Or heirs-Numenorean for that matter)

I can't see any PM advising sexism.

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

[Donald Renouf]

Post by Michael Rhodes
Pity that QEII cannot do an Edward VII and issue new letters patent
allowing the peerages to pass to Andrew's daughters, and their male
issue, in the event of no future sons, as in the case of the Fife
Dukedom.

Why can't she?

(Although actually, of course, Edward VII did not allow the existing
peerages [D Fife & M Macduff, 1889, E Fife, 1885, E Fife & V Macduff,
1759] to pass to the daughters of Alexander and Louise, he created new
ones [D Fife & E Macduff, 1900] which would.)

DJR

[Michael Rhodes]

Post by Donald Renouf

Post by Michael Rhodes
Pity that QEII cannot do an Edward VII and issue new letters patent
allowing the peerages to pass to Andrew's daughters, and their male
issue, in the event of no future sons, as in the case of the Fife
Dukedom.

Why can't she?
(Although actually, of course, Edward VII did not allow the existing
peerages [D Fife & M Macduff, 1889, E Fife, 1885, E Fife & V Macduff,
1759] to pass to the daughters of Alexander and Louise, he created new
ones [D Fife & E Macduff, 1900] which would.)
DJR

I was aware that the Duke of Fife was further created Duke of Fife
with the new proviso. Between 1900 and 1912 was he (like the Earl of
Mansfield & Mansfield) known as the Duke of Fife and Fife?

Anyway, if Mr Richard Kay (Daily Mail Diary Oct 14) is to be believed,
then we may soon have a new Duchess of York in the shape of Amanda
Staveley, of good Yorkshire breeding stock - -

--

Michael Rhodes

[jlk7e]

Post by Michael Rhodes

Post by Donald Renouf

Post by Michael Rhodes
Pity that QEII cannot do an Edward VII and issue new letters patent
allowing the peerages to pass to Andrew's daughters, and their male
issue, in the event of no future sons, as in the case of the Fife
Dukedom.

Why can't she?
(Although actually, of course, Edward VII did not allow the existing
peerages [D Fife & M Macduff, 1889, E Fife, 1885, E Fife & V Macduff,
1759] to pass to the daughters of Alexander and Louise, he created new
ones [D Fife & E Macduff, 1900] which would.)
DJR

I was aware that the Duke of Fife was further created Duke of Fife
with the new proviso. Between 1900 and 1912 was he (like the Earl of
Mansfield & Mansfield) known as the Duke of Fife and Fife?

Is the Duke of Argyll known as the "Duke of Argyll and Argyll"? He is
the possessor of two Dukedoms of Argyll - the 1701 Scottish Dukedom
and the 1892 U.K. Dukedom.

[Donald Renouf]

Post by jlk7e

Post by Michael Rhodes
I was aware that the Duke of Fife was further created Duke of Fife
with the new proviso. Between 1900 and 1912 was he (like the Earl of
Mansfield & Mansfield) known as the Duke of Fife and Fife?

Is the Duke of Argyll known as the "Duke of Argyll and Argyll"? He is
the possessor of two Dukedoms of Argyll - the 1701 Scottish Dukedom
and the 1892 U.K. Dukedom.

But the Mansfield and Mansfield titles refer to two different
Mansfields (one in Notts and one in Middx) whereas the Fife and Argyll
titles don't, as far as I know.

[Gidzmo]

Anyway, if Mr Richard Kay (Daily Mail Diary Oct 14) is to be believed, then we

may soon have a new Duchess of York in the shape of Amanda Staveley, of good
Yorkshire breeding stock.

IF Andrew does marry Amanda, then any sons from that marriage would be before
Beatrice and Eugenie in succession order.
Any daughters would probably be after Eugenie (daughters in birth order?).

[Gary Holtzman]

Post by Gidzmo
IF Andrew does marry Amanda, then any sons from that marriage would be
before Beatrice and Eugenie in succession order.
Any daughters would probably be after Eugenie (daughters in birth order?).

Correct.

[Stan Brown]

Post by Donald Renouf

Post by Michael Rhodes
Pity that QEII cannot do an Edward VII and issue new letters patent
allowing the peerages to pass to Andrew's daughters, and their male
issue, in the event of no future sons, as in the case of the Fife
Dukedom.

Why can't she?
(Although actually, of course, Edward VII did not allow the existing
peerages [D Fife & M Macduff, 1889, E Fife, 1885, E Fife & V Macduff,
1759] to pass to the daughters of Alexander and Louise, he created new
ones [D Fife & E Macduff, 1900] which would.)

You've answered your own question. Remainder of an existing peerage
can't be changed by the Sovereign, only by Parliament.

In the present climate I doubt that HM could get away with creating
new hereditary peerages even for members of her own family. And from
the other perspective, why should Beatrice have an hereditary title
if Eugenie does not?

[Gary Holtzman]

Post by Stan Brown
In the present climate I doubt that HM could get away with creating
new hereditary peerages even for members of her own family.

But she has done so as recently as the Wessex earldom - 1999, was it? I think that it
is premature to say that creating peerages within the royal family is out of bounds.

[Stan Brown]

Post by Gary Holtzman

Post by Stan Brown
In the present climate I doubt that HM could get away with creating
new hereditary peerages even for members of her own family.

But she has done so as recently as the Wessex earldom - 1999, was it? I think that it
is premature to say that creating peerages within the royal family is out of bounds.

Well, of course we're both just speculating. I could be wrong --
actually I hope I'm wrong -- but I take the giving of a mere earldom
to Edward as a first step to cutting off all hereditary peerages.

It will be interesting to see whether William gets any peerage if he
marries during his grandmother's lifetime. It will be even more
interesting to see whether Harry gets one under those circumstances.

[Graham]

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Gary Holtzman

Post by Stan Brown
In the present climate I doubt that HM could get away with creating
new hereditary peerages even for members of her own family.

But she has done so as recently as the Wessex earldom - 1999,
was it? I think that it is premature to say that creating
peerages within the royal family is out of bounds.

Well, of course we're both just speculating. I could be wrong --
actually I hope I'm wrong -- but I take the giving of a mere earldom
to Edward as a first step to cutting off all hereditary peerages.
It will be interesting to see whether William gets any peerage if he
marries during his grandmother's lifetime. It will be even more
interesting to see whether Harry gets one under those circumstances.

What would be the odds of Harry getting an Earldom, with the
promise of York once Uncle Andy (not to be confused with the
Hole-in-the-Wall Gang character of the same name) passes on?
Of course, we don't know that this will lead to that title's
extinction, any more than we know that the current creation of
Edinburgh will die with the survivor of Philip and Elizabeth.

One argument against this is the ages - Edward is 42 years
younger than his father and almost 38 years younger than his
mother, while the gap between Andrew and Harry is 24 years.
If Andrew were to live to his father's present age, Harry would
be aged 58 before York became eligible for recreation.

[Jaak Suurpere]

Post by Stan Brown

Post by maggie
Hi,
I was just wondering if you could explain something for me. When the
Duke of York dies, what will happen to his title? Seeing as he has no
male heir, will Princess Beatrice of York inherit her father's title,
or must it still be a male who inherits such a title?

The dukedom of York has the usual "remainder" (rules of
inheritance), which means that only a male descended in the male
line from the present Duke of York can inherit his title. So his
daughters cannot inherit it, and neither could any of their sons. If
he dies without male issue, the dukedom reverts to the crown, which
may or may not re-grant it (as a new creation) to anyone else.

Post by maggie
Also, what will
happen to his daughters' titles when they are married?

Titles? I think you mean their _styles_ of "HRH Princess N of York",
which won't change. The "Mrs." with husband's name may be appended,
as was done with Princess Anne.
And no, someone who marries a princess does not automatically get
any special style or title, unlike someone who marries a prince or
peer.
You might like to skim our BritFAQ (URL below), which answers this
and many other questions.

It is not clear from BritFAQ!

The title "Duke of York" will go extinct, again. What exactly is the
number of the last creation?

But what happens to the styles?

Starting with Edinburgh:

Who was Charles Arthur George Philip from 1948 to 1952? A Letter
Patent made him Prince, but of what? Was he Prince Charles of nothing,
or Prince Charles of United Kingdom, or Prince Charles of Edinburgh?

In 1952, he became a duke, which takes precedence over the status of
Prince other than The Prince of Wales.

Or Wales:

William and Henry have been Prince Henry of Wales and Prince William
of Wales from their birth.

How long will Henry remain Prince Henry of Wales, provided he is not
created a peer? If Charles accedes, William would immediately become a
Duke (of Cornwall in England, Wales and presumably Ireland, and of
Rothesay in Scotland). Will Henry remain Prince Henry of Wales even if
Charles recreates the Principality? Even if there are other Princes
named Prince N of Wales?

And now back to the York Princesses. If Andrew dies, the duchy will go
extinct. Of course, the Queen or whosoever may then reign can create
someone new a Duke of York, or a Duchess of York.

But the styles of Princess Beatrice of York and Princess Eugenie of
York - do those styles remain even if there is a new creation of
Dukedom of York? Even if this new creation works to confer the style
Princess N of York to someone else?

[Frank H. Johansen]

Post by Jaak Suurpere
But what happens to the styles?
Who was Charles Arthur George Philip from 1948 to 1952? A Letter
Patent made him Prince, but of what? Was he Prince Charles of nothing,
or Prince Charles of United Kingdom, or Prince Charles of Edinburgh?

Although the Letters Patent does not spesifically says so,
he was Prince of the United Kingdom. His style was HRH
Prince Charles of Edinburgh.

Post by Jaak Suurpere
In 1952, he became a duke, which takes precedence over the status of
Prince other than The Prince of Wales.

Yes, he then became HRH The Duke of Cornwall.

Post by Jaak Suurpere
William and Henry have been Prince Henry of Wales and Prince William
of Wales from their birth.
How long will Henry remain Prince Henry of Wales, provided he is not
created a peer? If Charles accedes, William would immediately become a
Duke (of Cornwall in England, Wales and presumably Ireland, and of
Rothesay in Scotland). Will Henry remain Prince Henry of Wales even if
Charles recreates the Principality? Even if there are other Princes
named Prince N of Wales?

When his father succeeds to the throne, he will become "HRH
The Prince Henry". The current Princess Royal changed from
"HRH Princess Anne of Edinburgh" to "HRH The Princess Anne"
when her mother succeeded.

Post by Jaak Suurpere
And now back to the York Princesses. If Andrew dies, the duchy will go
extinct. Of course, the Queen or whosoever may then reign can create
someone new a Duke of York, or a Duchess of York.
But the styles of Princess Beatrice of York and Princess Eugenie of
York - do those styles remain even if there is a new creation of
Dukedom of York?

Yes. They are still daughters of a Duke of York. But they
might scipt the York-part if they so wish. Alexandra of Kent
goes by the style "HRH Princess Alexandra, the Hon. Lady
Ogilvy". (Not sure when she dropped "of Kent". On marriage?
Or later?)

Post by Jaak Suurpere
Even if this new creation works to confer the style
Princess N of York to someone else?

Yes. There are two Princesses N of York now (Beatrice and
Eugenie). There's no problem if there wore to be more
Princesses of York.

[Gary Holtzman]

Post by Jaak Suurpere
And now back to the York Princesses. If Andrew dies, the duchy will go
extinct. Of course, the Queen or whosoever may then reign can create
someone new a Duke of York, or a Duchess of York.
But the styles of Princess Beatrice of York and Princess Eugenie of
York - do those styles remain even if there is a new creation of
Dukedom of York? Even if this new creation works to confer the style
Princess N of York to someone else?

Yes, the styles would remain. Princess Alexandrina Victoria of Kent remained so even
after the Duke her father had died.

[Gidzmo]

The title "Duke of York" will go extinct, again. What exactly is the number of

the last creation?

Most recent creation: 23 July 1986, upon Andrew's marriage to Sarah Ferguson.

Who was Charles Philip Arthur George from 1948 to 1952?

As per George VI, Charles and Anne were entitled to be styled as HRH Prince
Charles and HRH Princess Anne (of Edinburgh, possibly) from their birth till
1952, when their mother became Queen.

Otherwise, they would have been known as the Earl of Merioneth (Charles) and
Lady Anne Mountbatten (Anne).

Andrew (b. 1960) and Edward (b. 1964) were Princes immediately because
Elizabeth was already Queen when they were born.

From the BritFAQ:
"On 9 November 1948, HM King George VI 'issued Letters Patent under the Great
Seal ordaining that any children born to the Duke & Duchess of Edinburgh would
have the title of Prince or Princess and the style of Royal Highness.' Thus,
Charles (born 1948) and Anne (born 1950) were to enjoy the style of HRH before
they would have been entitled to it upon their mother's accession as Queen."

For Charles:
1948-52--HRH Prince Charles of Edinburgh
1952-61--HRH the Prince Charles, Duke of Cornwall
1961-present--HRH the Prince Charles, the Prince of Wales, Duke of Cornwall and
Rothesay, Earl of Chester, etc.

Charles has had precedence over all other Dukes in the UK since 1952 (at
least), when he became Duke of Cornwall.

If Charles accedes, William would immediately become a Duke (of Cornwall in

England, Wales and presumably Ireland, and of Rothesay in Scotland).

William would automatically become Duke of Cornwall on Charles' accession. The
Wales titles (which are strictly for the heir-apparent) would be granted via a
Letters Patent (they do not descend to the heir, as other peerages do).

How long will Henry remain Prince Henry of Wales, provided he is not created a

peer?

The usual practice in the family has been to create the peerage upon the
person's marriage (as was the case with Andrew and Edward). Thus, Henry will
probably not have a peerage title until his marriage. Charles might grant one
upon accession, if he chose.

And now back to the York Princesses. If Andrew dies, the Duchy will go

extinct.

The title reverts back to the Crown, unless Andrew remarries and has a son.
Whoever is monarch at that point COULD regrant the York title to Beatrice under
a new LP (however, I don't know of any peerage being regranted in that way).

I think Beatrice and Eugenie would be
referred to as "of York" till marriage. Then they would take on their
husband's title (retaining that of Princess).

Should Andrew remarry, any sons born of the new marriage would be ahead of
Beatrice and Eugenie in the succession order. Any daughters would be after
Eugenie (sons and their children in birth order, then daughters and their
children in birth order).

[Kelly]

snip

Post by Gary Holtzman

And now back to the York Princesses. If Andrew dies, the Duchy will go

extinct.
The title reverts back to the Crown, unless Andrew remarries and has a son.

It does no such thing. The only titles that merge with the Crown are those
held by whoever becomes monarch. The title becomes extinct.

Kelly
--
What we see depends mainly on what we look for.

[Colin]

Post by Stan Brown

Post by maggie
Hi,
I was just wondering if you could explain something for me. When the
Duke of York dies, what will happen to his title? Seeing as he has no
male heir, will Princess Beatrice of York inherit her father's title,
or must it still be a male who inherits such a title?

The dukedom of York has the usual "remainder" (rules of
inheritance), which means that only a male descended in the male
line from the present Duke of York can inherit his title. So his
daughters cannot inherit it, and neither could any of their sons. If
he dies without male issue, the dukedom reverts to the crown, which
may or may not re-grant it (as a new creation) to anyone else.

Post by maggie
Also, what will
happen to his daughters' titles when they are married?

Titles? I think you mean their _styles_ of "HRH Princess N of York",
which won't change. The "Mrs." with husband's name may be appended,
as was done with Princess Anne.
And no, someone who marries a princess does not automatically get
any special style or title, unlike someone who marries a prince or
peer.
You might like to skim our BritFAQ (URL below), which answers this
and many other questions.

But Princess Alexandra of Kent went to being Princess Alexandra, Mrs
Angus Ogilvy (rather absurdly of course!) on her marriage ie without
the "of Kent". Presumably the same would apply to Princesses Beatrice
and Eugenie on the same principle? Mind you it is very difficult to
predict with any certainty what members of the Royal Family will call
themselves. Take "Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester" for example.
I know she had the Queen's approval but even so...

[Joe]

Post by maggie
Hi,
I was just wondering if you could explain something for me. When the
Duke of York dies, what will happen to his title? Seeing as he has no
male heir, will Princess Beatrice of York inherit her father's title,
or must it still be a male who inherits such a title? Also, what will
happen to his daughters' titles when they are married?
Thanks so much!

*sigh* I wish everyone had been as polite to me when I asked the same
question about 18 months ago. People snippilly instructed me to
google for the answer -even though that generated about 2700 entries.

Besides, there were many replies and my question initiated many
discussions; it's not like the people here actually tire of displaying
their knowledge or expertise.

Oh well. You were right to come here to ask.

Joe, finally brushing that chip off his shoulder