Discussion:
The end of the Raj
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hihgdm
2017-08-15 13:28:42 UTC
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https://inews.co.uk/opinion/britain-will-never-relationship-india-remains-obsessed-empire/

This article presents an interesting view of the meaning of the so-called British Empire, aka the British World Invasion & Occupation, by focusing on the Indian (and ultimately Pakastani) experience, from the point of view of the occupiers and the occupied. In particular, "...Imperial arrogance still courses through the veins of millions. Around 45 per cent of British people believe colonialism was great for both the rulers and the subjugated. The Raj for them is a historical romance...". Not so, I imagine, for everyone.

I think the awfulness of the Raj reached a peak during the over-the-top coronation durbar of 1911, when so many Indian grandees "worshipped" their Emperor and Empress, but I have to wonder how many of them were happy to do it? It amazes me that they felt compelled to subjugate themselves to the titular leaders of their foreign invaders. Ultimately they did see the light and took their country back, albeit ending up with two countries and much violence. They could have taken a page out of the book of the Irish experience of the Raj and done it with much more obvious rebellion but many more of them would probably have been slaughtered than were slaughtered in the amazing country known as Ireland. A sad page in history for all countries concerned.

What made it OK for the United Kingdom and some other European countries to invade/pillage/rape other sovereign nations and, in the process, impose their version of what is civilised? How unspeakably arrogant.
David Amicus
2017-08-15 18:27:58 UTC
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Post by hihgdm
https://inews.co.uk/opinion/britain-will-never-relationship-india-remains-obsessed-empire/
This article presents an interesting view of the meaning of the so-called British Empire, aka the British World Invasion & Occupation, by focusing on the Indian (and ultimately Pakastani) experience, from the point of view of the occupiers and the occupied. In particular, "...Imperial arrogance still courses through the veins of millions. Around 45 per cent of British people believe colonialism was great for both the rulers and the subjugated. The Raj for them is a historical romance...". Not so, I imagine, for everyone.
I think the awfulness of the Raj reached a peak during the over-the-top coronation durbar of 1911, when so many Indian grandees "worshipped" their Emperor and Empress, but I have to wonder how many of them were happy to do it? It amazes me that they felt compelled to subjugate themselves to the titular leaders of their foreign invaders. Ultimately they did see the light and took their country back, albeit ending up with two countries and much violence. They could have taken a page out of the book of the Irish experience of the Raj and done it with much more obvious rebellion but many more of them would probably have been slaughtered than were slaughtered in the amazing country known as Ireland. A sad page in history for all countries concerned.
What made it OK for the United Kingdom and some other European countries to invade/pillage/rape other sovereign nations and, in the process, impose their version of what is civilised? How unspeakably arrogant.
The Sikhs were the most loyal subjects and it was shameful that the Partition ignored them!
The Chief
2017-08-15 19:06:46 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by David Amicus
Post by hihgdm
https://inews.co.uk/opinion/britain-will-never-relationship-india-remains-obsessed-empire/
This article presents an interesting view of the meaning of the so-called British Empire, aka the British World Invasion & Occupation, by focusing on the Indian (and ultimately Pakastani) experience, from the point of view of the occupiers and the occupied. In particular, "...Imperial arrogance still courses through the veins of millions. Around 45 per cent of British people believe colonialism was great for both the rulers and the subjugated. The Raj for them is a historical romance...". Not so, I imagine, for everyone.
I think the awfulness of the Raj reached a peak during the over-the-top coronation durbar of 1911, when so many Indian grandees "worshipped" their Emperor and Empress, but I have to wonder how many of them were happy to do it? It amazes me that they felt compelled to subjugate themselves to the titular leaders of their foreign invaders. Ultimately they did see the light and took their country back, albeit ending up with two countries and much violence. They could have taken a page out of the book of the Irish experience of the Raj and done it with much more obvious rebellion but many more of them would probably have been slaughtered than were slaughtered in the amazing country known as Ireland. A sad page in history for all countries concerned.
What made it OK for the United Kingdom and some other European countries to invade/pillage/rape other sovereign nations and, in the process, impose their version of what is civilised? How unspeakably arrogant.
The Sikhs were the most loyal subjects and it was shameful that the Partition ignored them!
Word from the wise: the "trusty natives" always get shafted in the end. Always.

They should have know that.

Regards,
The Chief
hihgdm
2017-08-15 22:55:04 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by The Chief
Post by David Amicus
Post by hihgdm
https://inews.co.uk/opinion/britain-will-never-relationship-india-remains-obsessed-empire/
This article presents an interesting view of the meaning of the so-called British Empire, aka the British World Invasion & Occupation, by focusing on the Indian (and ultimately Pakastani) experience, from the point of view of the occupiers and the occupied. In particular, "...Imperial arrogance still courses through the veins of millions. Around 45 per cent of British people believe colonialism was great for both the rulers and the subjugated. The Raj for them is a historical romance...". Not so, I imagine, for everyone.
I think the awfulness of the Raj reached a peak during the over-the-top coronation durbar of 1911, when so many Indian grandees "worshipped" their Emperor and Empress, but I have to wonder how many of them were happy to do it? It amazes me that they felt compelled to subjugate themselves to the titular leaders of their foreign invaders. Ultimately they did see the light and took their country back, albeit ending up with two countries and much violence. They could have taken a page out of the book of the Irish experience of the Raj and done it with much more obvious rebellion but many more of them would probably have been slaughtered than were slaughtered in the amazing country known as Ireland. A sad page in history for all countries concerned.
What made it OK for the United Kingdom and some other European countries to invade/pillage/rape other sovereign nations and, in the process, impose their version of what is civilised? How unspeakably arrogant.
The Sikhs were the most loyal subjects and it was shameful that the Partition ignored them!
Word from the wise: the "trusty natives" always get shafted in the end. Always.
They should have know that.
Regards,
The Chief
I imagine the "trusty natives" knew perfectly well they were being shafted right from the beginning but what could they do about it? If they had told the imperialists to get lost, or words to that effect, what would the response have been? Perhaps having their own version of Éamon de Valera might have changed their history. He wasn't perfect but he was an absolute patriot.
The Chief
2017-08-15 22:59:57 UTC
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Post by hihgdm
Post by The Chief
Post by David Amicus
Post by hihgdm
https://inews.co.uk/opinion/britain-will-never-relationship-india-remains-obsessed-empire/
This article presents an interesting view of the meaning of the so-called British Empire, aka the British World Invasion & Occupation, by focusing on the Indian (and ultimately Pakastani) experience, from the point of view of the occupiers and the occupied. In particular, "...Imperial arrogance still courses through the veins of millions. Around 45 per cent of British people believe colonialism was great for both the rulers and the subjugated. The Raj for them is a historical romance...". Not so, I imagine, for everyone.
I think the awfulness of the Raj reached a peak during the over-the-top coronation durbar of 1911, when so many Indian grandees "worshipped" their Emperor and Empress, but I have to wonder how many of them were happy to do it? It amazes me that they felt compelled to subjugate themselves to the titular leaders of their foreign invaders. Ultimately they did see the light and took their country back, albeit ending up with two countries and much violence. They could have taken a page out of the book of the Irish experience of the Raj and done it with much more obvious rebellion but many more of them would probably have been slaughtered than were slaughtered in the amazing country known as Ireland. A sad page in history for all countries concerned.
What made it OK for the United Kingdom and some other European countries to invade/pillage/rape other sovereign nations and, in the process, impose their version of what is civilised? How unspeakably arrogant.
The Sikhs were the most loyal subjects and it was shameful that the Partition ignored them!
Word from the wise: the "trusty natives" always get shafted in the end. Always.
They should have know that.
Regards,
The Chief
I imagine the "trusty natives" knew perfectly well they were being shafted right from the beginning but what could they do about it? If they had told the imperialists to get lost, or words to that effect, what would the response have been? Perhaps having their own version of Éamon de Valera might have changed their history. He wasn't perfect but he was an absolute patriot.
Ah, I remember listening to him on the wireless, in school!

Up Dev! Up the republic!
Louis Epstein
2017-08-16 06:45:40 UTC
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Post by The Chief
Ah, I remember listening to him on the wireless, in school!
Up Dev! Up the republic!
Cursed be his memory!
Down with the very IDEA of republics!

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.
Donald4564
2017-08-15 23:22:57 UTC
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Post by hihgdm
I imagine the "trusty natives" knew perfectly well they were being shafted
right
from the beginning but what could they do about it?
When has the ordinary man in the street been able to do anything anyway? Can he still do anything today? Answer - No!

There will always be those people who will take charge of things in one way or another - they are called politicians.

De Valera was just another politician in a long line of 'em who were doing just what they wanted without any real regard for the ordinary people - they were just forced to go along with the changes.

Regards
Donald Binks
hihgdm
2017-08-16 00:03:26 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Donald4564
Post by hihgdm
I imagine the "trusty natives" knew perfectly well they were being shafted
right
from the beginning but what could they do about it?
When has the ordinary man in the street been able to do anything anyway? Can he still do anything today? Answer - No!
There will always be those people who will take charge of things in one way or another - they are called politicians.
De Valera was just another politician in a long line of 'em who were doing just what they wanted without any real regard for the ordinary people - they were just forced to go along with the changes.
Regards
Donald Binks
Let's get rid of the politicians. OK, now they're gone. What do we do next?
Donald4564
2017-08-16 04:18:28 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by hihgdm
Post by Donald4564
Post by hihgdm
I imagine the "trusty natives" knew perfectly well they were being shafted
right
from the beginning but what could they do about it?
When has the ordinary man in the street been able to do anything anyway? Can he still do anything today? Answer - No!
There will always be those people who will take charge of things in one way or another - they are called politicians.
De Valera was just another politician in a long line of 'em who were doing just what they wanted without any real regard for the ordinary people - they were just forced to go along with the changes.
Regards
Donald Binks
Let's get rid of the politicians. OK, now they're gone. What do we do next?
Do what we are starting to do in Oz - vote on issues by post.

Regards
Donald Binks
The Chief
2017-08-15 19:47:38 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by hihgdm
https://inews.co.uk/opinion/britain-will-never-relationship-india-remains-obsessed-empire/
This article presents an interesting view of the meaning of the so-called British Empire, aka the British World Invasion & Occupation, by focusing on the Indian (and ultimately Pakastani) experience, from the point of view of the occupiers and the occupied. In particular, "...Imperial arrogance still courses through the veins of millions. Around 45 per cent of British people believe colonialism was great for both the rulers and the subjugated. The Raj for them is a historical romance...". Not so, I imagine, for everyone.
I think the awfulness of the Raj reached a peak during the over-the-top coronation durbar of 1911, when so many Indian grandees "worshipped" their Emperor and Empress, but I have to wonder how many of them were happy to do it? It amazes me that they felt compelled to subjugate themselves to the titular leaders of their foreign invaders. Ultimately they did see the light and took their country back, albeit ending up with two countries and much violence. They could have taken a page out of the book of the Irish experience of the Raj and done it with much more obvious rebellion but many more of them would probably have been slaughtered than were slaughtered in the amazing country known as Ireland. A sad page in history for all countries concerned.
What made it OK for the United Kingdom and some other European countries to invade/pillage/rape other sovereign nations and, in the process, impose their version of what is civilised? How unspeakably arrogant.
But did the Indian passivity save or cost lives?
If they had rallied to the cause post-Amristsar, then the millions who died in the deliberate, British induced WWII famine, and the 1947 partition, would have been avoided.

Regards,
The Chief
Donald4564
2017-08-15 20:46:54 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by hihgdm
https://inews.co.uk/opinion/britain-will-never-relationship-india-remains-obsessed-empire/
This article presents an interesting view of the meaning of the so-called British Empire, aka the British World Invasion & Occupation, by focusing on the Indian (and ultimately Pakastani) experience, from the point of view of the occupiers and the occupied. In particular, "...Imperial arrogance still courses through the veins of millions. Around 45 per cent of British people believe colonialism was great for both the rulers and the subjugated. The Raj for them is a historical romance...". Not so, I imagine, for everyone.
I think the awfulness of the Raj reached a peak during the over-the-top coronation durbar of 1911, when so many Indian grandees "worshipped" their Emperor and Empress, but I have to wonder how many of them were happy to do it? It amazes me that they felt compelled to subjugate themselves to the titular leaders of their foreign invaders. Ultimately they did see the light and took their country back, albeit ending up with two countries and much violence. They could have taken a page out of the book of the Irish experience of the Raj and done it with much more obvious rebellion but many more of them would probably have been slaughtered than were slaughtered in the amazing country known as Ireland. A sad page in history for all countries concerned.
What made it OK for the United Kingdom and some other European countries to invade/pillage/rape other sovereign nations and, in the process, impose their version of what is civilised? How unspeakably arrogant.
I think it is so easy to look at something in retrospect and heap a lot of abuse at it. One must consider how things come about. India's affiliation with the U.K. came about basically through trade. A company was formed which started a central administration in India. The British Government only later took over this administration. I think that history will show that this "administration" was thought of mutual benefit on both sides. It was under British administration that the country "India" came about and was unified and further expanded from its original boundaries. Had India not been unified and the British administration not been there, we would today be looking at a collection of small states ruled by Maharajahs - they of the plenty, with very poor populations.

So, in essence, you have to take in the overall picture and whilst not everything was perfect - and some events were quite awful, one has to look at what the alternatives might have been. I think that after partition, the two resultant countries were responsible for quite awful situations as well.

I always looked at the Empire I suppose to some degree through rose-coloured glasses, in that I viewed it primarily as a way of uniting some of the peoples of this world - with a great background of diversity.

Regards
Donald Binks
Louis Epstein
2017-08-16 06:47:17 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Donald4564
Post by hihgdm
https://inews.co.uk/opinion/britain-will-never-relationship-india-remains-obsessed-empire/
This article presents an interesting view of the meaning of the so-called British Empire, aka the British World Invasion & Occupation, by focusing on the Indian (and ultimately Pakastani) experience, from the point of view of the occupiers and the occupied. In particular, "...Imperial arrogance still courses through the veins of millions. Around 45 per cent of British people believe colonialism was great for both the rulers and the subjugated. The Raj for them is a historical romance...". Not so, I imagine, for everyone.
I think the awfulness of the Raj reached a peak during the over-the-top coronation durbar of 1911, when so many Indian grandees "worshipped" their Emperor and Empress, but I have to wonder how many of them were happy to do it? It amazes me that they felt compelled to subjugate themselves to the titular leaders of their foreign invaders. Ultimately they did see the light and took their country back, albeit ending up with two countries and much violence. They could have taken a page out of the book of the Irish experience of the Raj and done it with much more obvious rebellion but many more of them would probably have been slaughtered than were slaughtered in the amazing country known as Ireland. A sad page in history for all countries concerned.
What made it OK for the United Kingdom and some other European countries to invade/pillage/rape other sovereign nations and, in the process, impose their version of what is civilised? How unspeakably arrogant.
I think it is so easy to look at something in retrospect and heap a lot of abuse at it. One must consider how things come about. India's affiliation with the U.K. came about basically through trade. A company was formed which started a central administration in India. The British Government only later took over this administration. I think that history will show that this "administration" was thought of mutual benefit on both sides. It was under British administration that the country "India" came about and was unified and further expanded from its original boundaries. Had India not been unified and the British administration not been there, we would today be looking at a collection of small states ruled by Maharajahs - they of the plenty, with very poor populations.
So, in essence, you have to take in the overall picture and whilst not
everything was perfect - and some events were quite awful, one has to
look at what the alternatives might have been. I think that after
partition, the two resultant countries were responsible for quite awful
situations as well.
Labour's pell-mell rush to independence,
and its radical hostility to the Princely States,
cost many lives.
Post by Donald4564
I always looked at the Empire I suppose to some degree through rose-coloured glasses, in that I viewed it primarily as a way of uniting some of the peoples of this world - with a great background of diversity.
Regards
Donald Binks
-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

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