Discussion:
Ebenbürtigkeit clauses for ancien-régime French "subsistutions héréditaires"?
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b***@gmail.com
2017-04-06 20:51:50 UTC
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In connection with the testament of the father of the recently deceased Prince Richard of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg, which demands that his (the testator's) grandson marries a noble (Aryan and Protestant) woman, I was wondering if such Ebenbürtigkeit clauses, demanding noble spouses, so well-known in German Fideikommisse and to a certain extent also English entails, I suppose, existed in France before the Revolution, when so-called "subsistutions héréditaires", a kind of entails or fideicommiss, apparantly were quite common?

The contemporary L'Éncyclopedié (ou Dictionnaire raisonné des sciences, des arts et des métiers) says quite a lot about "subsistutions héréditaires", but nothing about any Ebenbürtigkeit requirements. I know it was common in the French nobility to marry bourgeois or recently ennobled heiresses (maybe not as common as in Britain, but far more common than in Germany), but I also suspect that some reactionary nobles like the duc de Saint-Simon would try to stop from beyond the grave his lineage being defiled by commoners. Does anybody know?

And BTW - if anybody knows anything concrete about the details of the Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg testament, especially about who is to inherit (the Sayn-Wittgenstein-Hohenstein line?) if Prince Gustav marries Carina Axelsson, feel free to chime in.
b***@gmail.com
2017-04-06 20:53:09 UTC
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Here is what l'Éncyclopédie says about it: https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/L%E2%80%99Encyclop%C3%A9die/1re_%C3%A9dition/SUBSTITUTION
Count Gudenus
2017-04-07 05:44:05 UTC
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Le jeudi 6 avril 2017 22:51:52 UTC+2, ***@gmail.com a écrit :
Where is the publicatio/Kundmachung,of Richard W's will?
b***@gmail.com
2017-04-07 23:26:16 UTC
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Post by Count Gudenus
Where is the publicatio/Kundmachung,of Richard W's will?
It hasn't been published and there is much speculation as to what its real contents and stipulations really are.
Count Gudenus
2017-04-08 15:19:21 UTC
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Le samedi 8 avril 2017 01:26:17 UTC+2, ***@gmail.com a écrit :

suppose whole thing er en provocation.

Med venlig hilse,

Greve Gudenus









































.














Suppo
Count Gudenus
2017-04-10 05:40:53 UTC
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Post by b***@gmail.com
Post by Count Gudenus
Where is the publicatio/Kundmachung,of Richard W's will?
It hasn't been published and there is much speculation as to what its real contents and stipulations really are.
There seems to be some difficulties
to read you
to send some messages
of course one knows very little of internet practises, such as size of letters/bogstaver
Count Gudenus
2017-04-09 07:53:15 UTC
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Le jeudi 6 avril 2017 22:51:52 UTC+2, ***@gmail.com a écrit :
Some observations:
./ebenbürtig (nicht-): égal (non-) de naissance - nascita eguali (7.10.1825). inégal.

./“ebenbürtige Ehe” (term in French, English: [mariage] d'égalité de naissance [1815, text -as law never promulgated in Austria (difference to [some] German States)];
./(marriage) being of equal status [better perhaps: of equal birth], Burke's 1977, 18)
./right of equality = Ebenbürtigkeit
Ebenbürtigkeit [equal birth, égalité de naissance]

./“ebenbürtige Ehe” - [mariage] d'égalité de naissance - marriage of equal status
Count Gudenus
2017-04-09 18:35:12 UTC
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Le jeudi 6 avril 2017 22:51:52 UTC+2, ***@gmail.com a écrit :

./ebenbürtig (nicht-): égal (non-) de naissance - nascita eguali (7.10.1825)/ inégal.

./“ebenbürtige Ehe” (term in French, English: [mariage] d'égalité de naissance [1815, text – as law - never promulgated in Austria (in difference to [some] German States)];

./(marriage) being of equal status [better perhaps: of equal birth], Burke's 1977, 18)

./right of equality = Ebenbürtigkeitrecht
Ebenbürtigkeit [equal birth, égalité de naissance]

./“ebenbürtige Ehe” - [mariage] d'égalité de naissance - marriage of equal status
Count Gudenus
2017-04-09 18:38:12 UTC
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Post by b***@gmail.com
In connection with the testament of the father of the recently deceased Prince Richard of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg, which demands that his (the testator's) grandson marries a noble (Aryan and Protestant) woman, I was wondering if such Ebenbürtigkeit clauses, demanding noble spouses, so well-known in German Fideikommisse and to a certain extent also English entails, I suppose, existed in France before the Revolution, when so-called "subsistutions héréditaires", a kind of entails or fideicommiss, apparantly were quite common?
The contemporary L'Éncyclopedié (ou Dictionnaire raisonné des sciences, des arts et des métiers) says quite a lot about "subsistutions héréditaires", but nothing about any Ebenbürtigkeit requirements. I know it was common in the French nobility to marry bourgeois or recently ennobled heiresses (maybe not as common as in Britain, but far more common than in Germany), but I also suspect that some reactionary nobles like the duc de Saint-Simon would try to stop from beyond the grave his lineage being defiled by commoners. Does anybody know?
And BTW - if anybody knows anything concrete about the details of the Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg testament, especially about who is to inherit (the Sayn-Wittgenstein-Hohenstein line?) if Prince Gustav marries Carina Axelsson, feel free to chime in.
b***@gmail.com
2017-04-09 20:58:02 UTC
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My dear Count, please don't clog this thread with all kinds of non-relevant Austrian perspectives.
Count Gudenus
2017-04-11 18:47:09 UTC
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Post by b***@gmail.com
My dear Count, please don't clog this thread with all kinds of non-relevant Austrian perspectives.
Some times your letters are very tiny.

Ebenbürtigkeit is if you want an Austriacum, see Vienna trety of which Denmark was a party;

Syppose you must go in Copenhagen to Danske, eventually Tyske Cancelli. (Rigsarkivet).
b***@gmail.com
2017-04-12 00:38:52 UTC
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I don't know what's up with the small letters. No more Austrian perspectives, please! Jeg skal ha information om franske len og fideikommisser, takk! If you want to go on about Danish stuff, please see https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/alt.talk.royalty/vFJAHVzdJaQ/HhqfP_nNCQAJ;context-place=forum/alt.talk.royalty
Count Gudenus
2017-04-12 07:02:23 UTC
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I don't know what's up with the small letters. No more Austrian perspectives, please! Jeg skal ha information om franske len og fideikommisser, takk! If you want to go on about Danish stuff, please see https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/alt.talk.royalty/vFJAHVzdJaQ/HhqfP_nNCQAJ;context-place=forum/alt.talk.royalty
Perspectiver Dansk?

Never seen that word before!

Len, fideikommisser i Frankrig go to our French Member Monsieur Doinique Charenton. Hoever his Engelsk er comme si - comme ça.
Philipp Gudenus
Count Gudenus
2017-04-12 07:19:01 UTC
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Post by b***@gmail.com
I don't know what's up with the small letters. No more Austrian perspectives, please! Jeg skal ha information om franske len og fideikommisser, takk! If you want to go on about Danish stuff, please see https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/alt.talk.royalty/vFJAHVzdJaQ/HhqfP_nNCQAJ;context-place=forum/alt.talk.royalty
Perspectiver Dansk?
Never seen that word before!
Len, fideikommisser i Frankrig go to our French Member Monsieur Doinique Charenton. Hoever his Engelsk er comme si - comme ça.
Philipp Gudenus
For E you must go to: Acte du Congrès de Vienne du 9 Juin 1815.

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