Discussion:
Logic of English order of precedence
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c***@hush.ai
2017-01-29 12:30:45 UTC
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Who are founts of precedence? And to whom does precedence flow?
Apart from Sovereign (from whom precedence flows as far as her grandsons, granddaughters and wives of grandsons), hereditary peers are founts of precedence.
From hereditary peers, precedence flows as far as eldest sons of younger sons (below companions of orders, above eldest sons of baronets) and wives of such eldest sons of sons and daughters of sons.
But a number of nonhereditary positions also make the recipient a fount of precedence. Sons of life barons rank after younger sons of hereditary barons and before baronets. And even wives of younger sons of knights receive precedence.

By contrast, many most elevated positions are not founts of precedence at all. Prime Minister´s wife is a common woman possessing no precedence, and therefore has to go behind the wife of a younger son of a knight. Bishops have been allowed to marry since Reformation and should, like judges, be life positions once elected. Even a retired bishop ranks above hereditary or life baron - yet unlike sons of a life baron, sons of a bishop hold no precedence and neither do wives of bishops.

Also: precedence seems to flow from husband to wife and children - but never from wife to husband. The precedence of Duke of Edinburgh is a special grant - he is not entitled to any from the fact of being husband of Sovereign. Nor does an appointment or creation give any precedence whatsoever to parents or siblings of the recipient.

Correct?
How are the public embarrassments of Prime Minister´s wife´s lack of precedence handled?
Louis Epstein
2017-02-15 22:18:00 UTC
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Post by c***@hush.ai
Who are founts of precedence? And to whom does precedence flow?
Apart from Sovereign (from whom precedence flows as far as her grandsons, granddaughters and wives of grandsons), hereditary peers are founts of precedence.
From hereditary peers, precedence flows as far as eldest sons of younger sons (below companions of orders, above eldest sons of baronets)
Strangely enough,the sons of eldest sons of peers appear to be nowhere on the table even though their select junior first cousins are!
Post by c***@hush.ai
and wives of such eldest sons of sons and daughters of sons.
But a number of nonhereditary positions also make the recipient a fount of precedence. Sons of life barons rank after younger sons of hereditary barons and before baronets. And even wives of younger sons of knights receive precedence.
By contrast, many most elevated positions are not founts of precedence at all. Prime Minister??s wife is a common woman possessing no precedence, and therefore has to go behind the wife of a younger son of a knight. Bishops have been allowed to marry since Reformation and should, like judges, be life positions once elected. Even a retired bishop ranks above hereditary or life baron - yet unlike sons of a life baron, sons of a bishop hold no precedence and neither do wives of bishops.
Also: precedence seems to flow from husband to wife and children - but never from wife to husband. The precedence of Duke of Edinburgh is a special grant - he is not entitled to any from the fact of being husband of Sovereign. Nor does an appointment or creation give any precedence whatsoever to parents or siblings of the recipient.
Correct?
How are the public embarrassments of Prime Minister??s wife??s lack of precedence handled?
-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.
Graham
2017-02-16 23:15:24 UTC
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Post by Louis Epstein
Post by c***@hush.ai
Who are founts of precedence? And to whom does precedence flow?
Apart from Sovereign (from whom precedence flows as far as her grandsons, granddaughters and wives of grandsons), hereditary peers are founts of precedence.
From hereditary peers, precedence flows as far as eldest sons of younger sons (below companions of orders, above eldest sons of baronets)
Strangely enough,the sons of eldest sons of peers appear to be nowhere on the table even though their select junior first cousins are!
In the case of the sons of eldest sons of dukes, marquesses and earls, do they normally take precedence from their fathers' courtesy titles? http://www.angelfire.com/realm/gotha/gotha/somerset.html What was the precedence of the current (19th) Duke of Somerset (born 30th December 1952) on the date of the Coronation? His grandfather was (17th) Duke of Somerset and his father was courtesy Lord Seymour - presumably he was a mere Honourable? His father (later 18th Duke) was 20 when his grandfather the 16th Duke died.
Louis Epstein
2017-02-17 00:16:07 UTC
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Post by Graham
Post by Louis Epstein
Post by c***@hush.ai
Who are founts of precedence? And to whom does precedence flow?
Apart from Sovereign (from whom precedence flows as far as her grandsons, granddaughters and wives of grandsons), hereditary peers are founts of precedence.
From hereditary peers, precedence flows as far as eldest sons of younger sons (below companions of orders, above eldest sons of baronets)
Strangely enough,the sons of eldest sons of peers appear to be nowhere on the table even though their select junior first cousins are!
In the case of the sons of eldest sons of dukes, marquesses and earls, do they normally take precedence from their fathers' courtesy titles?
http://www.angelfire.com/realm/gotha/gotha/somerset.html What was the precedence of the current (19th) Duke of Somerset (born 30th December 1952)
on the date of the Coronation? His grandfather was (17th) Duke of Somerset and his father was courtesy Lord Seymour - presumably he was a mere
Honourable? His father (later 18th Duke) was 20 when his grandfather the 16th Duke died.
Given that the eldest sons of peers take precedence based on their fathers' precedence regardless of what their courtesy titles are,
it would be absurd to shuffle this for the next generation,else a Lord Seymour's heir (2nd in line to a Dukedom of 1547) would rank
after a Viscount Macmillan of Ovenden's (2nd in line to an Earldom of 1984).

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

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