Discussion:
100'th Anniversary of Republican Triumph!
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The Chief
2017-07-12 08:37:01 UTC
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Election of Dev, the Sinn Fein candidate, on 12th July, 1917 in East Clare!
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/register/sinn-fein-victory-in-east-clare-g0zc2pr2h

Regards,
The Chief
Graham
2017-07-14 22:00:10 UTC
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Election of Dev, the Sinn Fein candidate, on 12th July, 1917 in East Clare!
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/register/sinn-fein-victory-in-east-clare-g0zc2pr2h
The same Dev who went on to swear the Oath of Fidelity to HM King George V in 1927 - http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/dail1927081200003?opendocument - a precedent which should be drawn to the attention of the current MPs from that party.
The Chief
2017-07-15 07:27:23 UTC
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Election of Dev, the Sinn Fein candidate, on 12th July, 1917 in East Clare!
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/register/sinn-fein-victory-in-east-clare-g0zc2pr2h
The same Dev who went on to swear the Oath of Fidelity to HM King George V in 1927 - http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/dail1927081200003?opendocument - a precedent which should be drawn to the attention of the current MPs from that party.
Now, now, I am sure you know that Dev never actually swore such an oath.
Regards,
The Chief
Graham
2017-07-15 10:06:55 UTC
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Post by The Chief
Post by Graham
Post by The Chief
Election of Dev, the Sinn Fein candidate, on 12th July, 1917 in East Clare!
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/register/sinn-fein-victory-in-east-clare-g0zc2pr2h
The same Dev who went on to swear the Oath of Fidelity to HM King George V in 1927 - http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/dail1927081200003?opendocument - a precedent which should be drawn to the attention of the current MPs from that party.
Now, now, I am sure you know that Dev never actually swore such an oath.
Then you may wish to get in touch with the authorities in the Oireachtas and tell them that the record of Dail debates is incorrect.
The Chief
2017-07-17 05:06:28 UTC
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Post by The Chief
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Election of Dev, the Sinn Fein candidate, on 12th July, 1917 in East Clare!
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/register/sinn-fein-victory-in-east-clare-g0zc2pr2h
The same Dev who went on to swear the Oath of Fidelity to HM King George V in 1927 - http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/dail1927081200003?opendocument - a precedent which should be drawn to the attention of the current MPs from that party.
Now, now, I am sure you know that Dev never actually swore such an oath.
Then you may wish to get in touch with the authorities in the Oireachtas and tell them that the record of Dail debates is incorrect.
It already was corrected. By President De Valera, in the Dáil on 29 April, 1932.

"I was allowed into the Dáil to my surprise. I heard the Clerk of the Dáil stand up and say—I forget the exact words—that we had conformed to Article 17 of the Constitution. It was as much as I could possibly do to resist standing up and saying, “That is an untruth.”

Regards,
The Chief
Graham
2017-07-17 22:17:59 UTC
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Post by Graham
Post by The Chief
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Election of Dev, the Sinn Fein candidate, on 12th July, 1917 in East Clare!
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/register/sinn-fein-victory-in-east-clare-g0zc2pr2h
The same Dev who went on to swear the Oath of Fidelity to HM King George V in 1927 - http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/dail1927081200003?opendocument - a precedent which should be drawn to the attention of the current MPs from that party.
Now, now, I am sure you know that Dev never actually swore such an oath.
Then you may wish to get in touch with the authorities in the Oireachtas and tell them that the record of Dail debates is incorrect.
It already was corrected. By President De Valera, in the Dáil on 29 April, 1932.
"I was allowed into the Dáil to my surprise. I heard the Clerk of the Dáil stand up and say—I forget the exact words—that we had conformed to Article 17 of the Constitution. It was as much as I could possibly do to resist standing up and saying, “That is an untruth.”
http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/dail1932042900006?opendocument
I note that Dev denied having sworn an oath, and referred to his party as "we who have been accused of perjury and blasphemy" He also said "Believing that “I swear” would mean an oath, I said, in my opinion, it was an oath. My view was that it was an oath"

General MacEoin: Might I ask the President if he signed a declaration in the sheriff's office before his election?

The President: Yes. I will make the point clear to the Deputy. I was allowed into the Dáil to my surprise. I heard the Clerk of the Dáil stand up and say—I forget the exact words—that we had conformed to Article 17 of the Constitution. It was as much as I could possibly do to resist standing up and saying, “That is an untruth.” I will tell why I did not. I said that if that is their interpretation of Article 17 of the Constitution, as they are the guardians of it, it is not incumbent upon me to put a different interpretation upon it."

If only Dev and his followers had decided at the time of the Treaty Debates that they were prepared to do what they went on to do in 1927, perhaps the Irish Civil War could have been avoided.
The Chief
2017-07-17 23:31:25 UTC
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Election of Dev, the Sinn Fein candidate, on 12th July, 1917 in East Clare!
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/register/sinn-fein-victory-in-east-clare-g0zc2pr2h
The same Dev who went on to swear the Oath of Fidelity to HM King George V in 1927 - http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/dail1927081200003?opendocument - a precedent which should be drawn to the attention of the current MPs from that party.
Now, now, I am sure you know that Dev never actually swore such an oath.
Then you may wish to get in touch with the authorities in the Oireachtas and tell them that the record of Dail debates is incorrect.
It already was corrected. By President De Valera, in the Dáil on 29 April, 1932.
"I was allowed into the Dáil to my surprise. I heard the Clerk of the Dáil stand up and say—I forget the exact words—that we had conformed to Article 17 of the Constitution. It was as much as I could possibly do to resist standing up and saying, “That is an untruth.”
http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/dail1932042900006?opendocument
I note that Dev denied having sworn an oath, and referred to his party as "we who have been accused of perjury and blasphemy" He also said "Believing that “I swear” would mean an oath, I said, in my opinion, it was an oath. My view was that it was an oath"
General MacEoin: Might I ask the President if he signed a declaration in the sheriff's office before his election?
The President: Yes. I will make the point clear to the Deputy. I was allowed into the Dáil to my surprise. I heard the Clerk of the Dáil stand up and say—I forget the exact words—that we had conformed to Article 17 of the Constitution. It was as much as I could possibly do to resist standing up and saying, “That is an untruth.” I will tell why I did not. I said that if that is their interpretation of Article 17 of the Constitution, as they are the guardians of it, it is not incumbent upon me to put a different interpretation upon it."
If only Dev and his followers had decided at the time of the Treaty Debates that they were prepared to do what they went on to do in 1927, perhaps the Irish Civil War could have been avoided.
In 1921/22 it was I think completely unknown that the practice in the Irish Free State with regard to the "Oath" would be utterly different than in other countries. The "Oath" was not sworn in any regular fashion, which goes to the root of why De Valera denied taking an oath in 1927.
Consider.
In Westminister, and I presume in those parliaments modeled thereon,
"An MP takes the oath by holding the sacred text in his or her uplifted hand and says the words of the oath."
This was not at all the practice in the Dáil. There, they simply signed their name in a register. There was no recitation of the oath, no holding of a Bible. When the Fianna Fail members entered the Dáil in 1927, the register was simply open at the appropriate spot, and they signed their names. That was it.

Regards,
The Chief
Louis Epstein
2017-07-16 18:30:59 UTC
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Post by Graham
Post by The Chief
Election of Dev, the Sinn Fein candidate, on 12th July, 1917 in East Clare!
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/register/sinn-fein-victory-in-east-clare-g0zc2pr2h
The same Dev who went on to swear the Oath of Fidelity to HM King George V in 1927 - http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/dail1927081200003?opendocument - a precedent which should be drawn to the attention of the current MPs from that party.
Amen!

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.
Count Gudenus
2017-07-17 16:45:19 UTC
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Post by The Chief
Election of Dev, the Sinn Fein candidate, on 12th July, 1917 in East Clare!
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/register/sinn-fein-victory-in-east-clare-g0zc2pr2h
Regards,
The Chief
res publica TRIUMPH?
The Chief
2017-07-18 04:49:44 UTC
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Post by Count Gudenus
Post by The Chief
Election of Dev, the Sinn Fein candidate, on 12th July, 1917 in East Clare!
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/register/sinn-fein-victory-in-east-clare-g0zc2pr2h
Regards,
The Chief
res publica TRIUMPH?
Why yes. The start of the fall of the Evil Empire, and the rise of the Republic!

Regards,
The Chief
Count Gudenus
2017-07-18 15:51:47 UTC
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the rise of the Republic!
may the reader understand:$
res publica?
The Chief
2017-07-24 08:25:13 UTC
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Post by The Chief
the rise of the Republic!
may the reader understand:$
res publica?
Yes?

Donald4564
2017-07-18 04:05:33 UTC
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Post by The Chief
Election of Dev, the Sinn Fein candidate, on 12th July, 1917 in East Clare!
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/register/sinn-fein-victory-in-east-clare-g0zc2pr2h
Regards,
The Chief
Oh to be sure, not dat day would not be a sayin' dat day did jit for day didn't do it loike any odders did and it doesn't mean da same ting as der odders did so day didn't do it did dey?

Regards
Donald Binks
The Chief
2017-07-18 04:35:06 UTC
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Post by The Chief
Election of Dev, the Sinn Fein candidate, on 12th July, 1917 in East Clare!
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/register/sinn-fein-victory-in-east-clare-g0zc2pr2h
Regards,
The Chief
Oh to be sure, not dat day would not be a sayin' dat day did jit for day didn't do it loike any odders did and it doesn't mean da same ting as der odders did so day didn't do it did dey?
Regards
Donald Binks
Ha ha. But can't we be serious for once? Dev did have a strong case. He did not recite an oath, and it was not read to him. He held no Bible, and raised no hand. There was no oath in front of him. He simply entered his name in a ledger.
On that basis, he consistently denied having taken an oath of allegiance to a foreign power. In any case he - and all the rest of them - had previously sworn allegiance to the Republic. It is tragic to think that the Civil War could have been averted if only the plans for the "Oath" had been explained in some detail. For it is clear that even the pro-Treaty party did not actually want to take the "Oath," and arranged things such that it was in reality avoided.

Regards,
The Chief
Graham
2017-07-18 20:36:23 UTC
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Post by The Chief
Election of Dev, the Sinn Fein candidate, on 12th July, 1917 in East Clare!
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/register/sinn-fein-victory-in-east-clare-g0zc2pr2h
Regards,
The Chief
Oh to be sure, not dat day would not be a sayin' dat day did jit for day didn't do it loike any odders did and it doesn't mean da same ting as der odders did so day didn't do it did dey?
Regards
Donald Binks
Ha ha. But can't we be serious for once? Dev did have a strong case. He did not recite an oath, and it was not read to him. He held no Bible, and raised no hand. There was no oath in front of him. He simply entered his name in a ledger.
On that basis, he consistently denied having taken an oath of allegiance to a foreign power. In any case he - and all the rest of them - had previously sworn allegiance to the Republic. It is tragic to think that the Civil War could have been averted if only the plans for the "Oath" had been explained in some detail. For it is clear that even the pro-Treaty party did not actually want to take the "Oath," and arranged things such that it was in reality avoided.
1. This reminds me of Tony Benn's comments after he had become one of Her Majesty's Privy Counsellors - in a procedure which was presumably in place in De Valera's day. https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200203/cmselect/cmpubadm/642/3041003.htm Question 4 - "As a privy councillor—and this would have happened to William—they read the oath to me and I said, "I have not agreed to it," and they said, "We have administered the oath." I never knew until that moment the meaning of the administration of an oath."

2. The Irish Civil War was indeed tragic/a tragedy.

3. http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/please-excuse-our-swearing-26198069.html refers to "the tortuous machinations by which Fianna Fail, under De Valera, entered first the Dail and then Government" That article also points out that "The original Republican objection had been not just to the oath but to the very existence of the Free State Dail, but, in 1926, De Valera suggested to the Sinn Fein Ard Fheis that if the oath was removed it would become a matter of policy rather than principle whether to enter the Dail or not. Having lost the argument he resigned to found Fianna Fail". And to this day Republican Sinn Fein's policy is that it would not take seats in the Dail if it had any. Academic/making a virtue out of necessity.

4. On 6th December 1922, the Irish Labour leader Thomas Johnston said something which Dev was to echo some years later "We recognise the act of taking an “Oath of Allegiance” as a formality, a condition of Membership of the Legislature, implying no obligation other than the ordinary obligation of every person who accepts the privileges of citizenship." http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/dail1922120600003?opendocument
Donald4564
2017-07-18 22:01:48 UTC
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Post by The Chief
Election of Dev, the Sinn Fein candidate, on 12th July, 1917 in East Clare!
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/register/sinn-fein-victory-in-east-clare-g0zc2pr2h
Regards,
The Chief
I think the same level of hypocrisy abounds in Australia where politicians formally swear their Oath, then immediately go off and support republicanism at the same time falling over themselves to meet any member of the Royal Family.

We no longer require new Australian citizens to swear the Oath - so we are fairly mixed up in this continual state of "being one thing but continually trying to be something else".

Regards
Donald Binks
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