Discussion:
Uradel of free origin
(too old to reply)
c***@hush.ai
2016-12-19 18:33:18 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
How much of German uradel are of free origin?
Some are. Many are not - they are descended from ministerials, who were serfs even while noble. Although eventually they were manumitted... like Markward of Anweiler. But notably, they were great lords while serfs. One Werner of Bolanden (of several family members of than name) was a lord of 1100 knights while a serf.
Any statistics of how much of Uradel is and how much is not of ministerial origin? Specific families prominent in 18th...21st century?
Count Gudenus
2016-12-19 19:08:44 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by c***@hush.ai
How much of German uradel are of free origin?
Some are. Many are not - they are descended from ministerials, who were serfs even while noble. Although eventually they were manumitted... like Markward of Anweiler. But notably, they were great lords while serfs. One Werner of Bolanden (of several family members of than name) was a lord of 1100 knights while a serf.
Any statistics of how much of Uradel is and how much is not of ministerial origin? Specific families prominent in 18th...21st century?
Being of ministerialis origin exclude to be of URADEL.

A ministerialis could own him see persons, fa
Count Gudenus
2016-12-19 19:14:42 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Count Gudenus
Post by c***@hush.ai
How much of German uradel are of free origin?
Some are. Many are not - they are descended from ministerials, who were serfs even while noble. Although eventually they were manumitted... like Markward of Anweiler. But notably, they were great lords while serfs. One Werner of Bolanden (of several family members of than name) was a lord of 1100 knights while a serf.
Any statistics of how much of Uradel is and how much is not of ministerial origin? Specific families prominent in 18th...21st century?
Being of ministerialis origin exclude to be of URADEL.
A ministerialis could own him see persons, fa
Corrigendum

A ministeralis could himself own persons/families of such condition. But that does not make/create him a nobleman. Once a slave allways a slave! One can not be reborn!
Count Gudenus
2016-12-20 12:33:48 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Le lundi 19 décembre 2016 19:33:19 UTC+1, ***@hush.ai a écrit :
The French speaks of noblesse immmémoriale!

But is immémoriale the correct translation of Ur?

What will it mean?
Louis Epstein
2016-12-20 16:26:39 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by c***@hush.ai
How much of German uradel are of free origin?
Some are. Many are not - they are descended from ministerials, who were
serfs even while noble. Although eventually they were manumitted... like
Markward of Anweiler. But notably, they were great lords while serfs.
One Werner of Bolanden (of several family members of than name) was a
lord of 1100 knights while a serf.
Any statistics of how much of Uradel is and how much is not of
ministerial origin? Specific families prominent in 18th...21st century?
How are you defining "serf"?
It's not as if being anything but an immediate vassal of the Emperor was
serfdom!

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.
Count Gudenus
2016-12-20 17:23:43 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Louis Epstein
Post by c***@hush.ai
How much of German uradel are of free origin?
Some are. Many are not - they are descended from ministerials, who were
serfs even while noble. Although eventually they were manumitted... like
Markward of Anweiler. But notably, they were great lords while serfs.
One Werner of Bolanden (of several family members of than name) was a
lord of 1100 knights while a serf.
Any statistics of how much of Uradel is and how much is not of
ministerial origin? Specific families prominent in 18th...21st century?
How are you defining "serf"?
It's not as if being anything but an immediate vassal of the Emperor was
serfdom!
One does not think that has much with “Uradel” to do. Term has been invented by Prussians around 1850.

Personally one does not deal with serfs.

Who is a ministerialis - who not?

Any ministerialis is owned by a lord/an Edelfreier, who can do with his subjects what he want, except divorcing their marriages.
c***@hush.ai
2016-12-20 20:50:42 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Louis Epstein
Post by c***@hush.ai
How much of German uradel are of free origin?
Some are. Many are not - they are descended from ministerials, who were
serfs even while noble. Although eventually they were manumitted... like
Markward of Anweiler. But notably, they were great lords while serfs.
One Werner of Bolanden (of several family members of than name) was a
lord of 1100 knights while a serf.
Any statistics of how much of Uradel is and how much is not of
ministerial origin? Specific families prominent in 18th...21st century?
How are you defining "serf"?
It's not as if being anything but an immediate vassal of the Emperor was
serfdom!
Oh, sure! Both Markward and Werner were actually serfs being immediate property of Emperor!
Serfdom as in not being legally free to forsake the service of a lord in order to serve another lord (or live off allodial property, also common in Germany).
Loading...