Discussion:
The Duchess of Bragança
(too old to reply)
Manuel de Sousa
2004-12-16 18:48:31 UTC
Permalink
About the Duchess Dona Maria Pia Saxe Coburgo Bragança :

http://www.projectedletters.com/vault/duchess/

and

http://www.projectedletters.com/vault/2/duchess/
Frank Johansen
2004-12-16 19:29:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Manuel de Sousa
http://www.projectedletters.com/vault/duchess/
and
http://www.projectedletters.com/vault/2/duchess/
Oh, no! Not again.... Sigh!
t***@optusnet.com.au
2004-12-16 20:08:23 UTC
Permalink
I am surprised that some royal genealogies online have added her as a
natural descendant of the Braganca family. Didnt she once claim to be a
child of a King of Spain, then changed to Portugal. Secondly no modern
natural offsprings have ever succeeded Royal titles unless personally
granted as such.

As Guy believes she is and always will be an imposter. No concete
connection to links her to any Royality by blood. Nor will we ever
know.

Regards

Charles SV
www.maltagenealogy.com
Guy Stair Sainty
2004-12-16 20:51:21 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@posting.google.com>, Manuel de Sousa
says...
Post by Manuel de Sousa
http://www.projectedletters.com/vault/duchess/
and
http://www.projectedletters.com/vault/2/duchess/
What a lovely story; it is almost up to the level of Anthony Hope.
--
Guy Stair Sainty
www.chivalricorders.org/index3.htm
CGdeVasconcellos
2004-12-16 21:23:55 UTC
Permalink
Date: 12/16/2004 10:48 AM Pacific Standard Time
http://www.projectedletters.com/vault/duchess/
and
http://www.projectedletters.com/vault/2/duchess/
Why continue with this farce?
What reputable Portuguese family really believes in this joke?
This fake "duchess" was noboby. Her secretary (or whatever he is) is nobody.
If Dona Maria II were to come back from the dead and adopt this guy, the
adoption
WOULD STILL BE INVALID.
In the unlikely event that the Portuguese monarchy were restored, Dom Duarte
would be king. He is our unanimous (or near unanimous) choice.
Get used to it and stop selling "orders"!

Carlos Noronha de Vasconcellos
p***@hotmail.com
2004-12-17 04:10:57 UTC
Permalink
Manuel the Rosarite,

I see you are up to no good yet again. Did you master "Dom" Rosario
order you to post this rubish on the news group so he might sell
another order or two?

It seems that the Rosarites are following the words of Reichsminister
Goebbels, "A lie repeated often enough soon becomes the truth". The
problem with this lie is that we all know the truth as it is, not as
you Rosarites wish it to be.

David Pritchard
George Lucki
2004-12-17 05:27:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Manuel de Sousa
http://www.projectedletters.com/vault/duchess/
and
http://www.projectedletters.com/vault/2/duchess/
Sheesh!

George
Patrick Cracroft-Brennan
2004-12-17 17:21:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Manuel de Sousa
http://www.projectedletters.com/vault/duchess/
and
http://www.projectedletters.com/vault/2/duchess/
Having reviewed the extensive correspondence on this subject and read
these two documents, I have to say that I have the distinct impression
that I've been living in a parralel universe where events were
different to how they are being portayed on here.

As one of the few people in this newsgroup who met Maria Pia and spent
some time in her company, I think my recollections might be of some
interest.

As many of you know, for many years I was heavily involved in the
so-called Order of St Lazarus. In the early 80's there was a lot of
meetings to try and resolve the split in the Order between the Spanish
Obedience (headed by the Duke of Seville) and the Paris Obedience
(headed by the Duc de Brissac). The late Col Gayre was the prime
mover in this and early in 1984 some of us from the Spanish Obedience
together with representatives from the Paris Obedience were formed
into a committee to organise a joint meeting of the two branches of
the Order of St Lazarus, to be held in Oxford in 1986 (called JIRO86),
at which the re-union of the Order under the Grand Mastership of the
Duc de Brissac would be announced. The committee was headed by Rev
Paul Williamson with myself as Hon Treasurer.

In the run-up to JIRO86 we held various functions and it was here that
I first met Maria Pia. At that time she would be about 78. To my
surprise she was accompanied by an old (i.e. long established, not old
in years - he was in his mid 30's) Portuguese friend of mine, Antonio.
It turned out that he and Maria Pia were to be married, in
anticipation of which she had made him Count of Amado Nuevo. After
their subsequent marriage he claimed jure uxoris the title of Duke of
Braganza. I met Maria Pia on many occasions and found her charming
but totally batty (a bit like Princess Helena Moutafian who took Maria
Pia under her wing).

We had the meeting in Oxford (which was attended by Antonio and Maria
Pia as Duke and Duchess of Braganza - Antonio looked particularly
dashing in his swallow tailed uniform!), which turned out to be
partially successful. At about this time Eric Wreding, who had just
finished a long-term relationship with Rev Paul Williamson, the
Chairman of JIRO86, became Chancellor to the Duke and Duchess of
Braganza and was created Count of Evora (a title he still uses).

Now this is what confuses me with the first of the documents posted
above. It says that on 3 April 1987 she abdicated as Duchess of
Braganza in favour of Rosario Poidimani - and yet I know that Eric
Wreding was acting as her Chancellor until her death, and afterwards
as Chancellor to her daughter Christina, who also claims to be Duchess
of Braganza.

It was not until the early 90's that Eric first mentioned Rosario
Poidimani to me, and the context was on how much distress he was
causing Maria Pia and her daughter, though I was not sure how.

Unfortunately I lost contact with Eric (though he is still living in
London) when I severed my ties with the Lazarites in about 1993.

As Lewis Carroll would say, "Curiouser and curiouser".

Patrick Cracroft-Brennan FCA HonFHS
Director - Heraldic Media Limited
http://www.heraldicmedia.com
Publishers of "Cracroft's Peerage"
The complete guide to the British Peerage
http://www.cracroftspeerage.co.uk
Guy Stair Sainty
2004-12-17 17:40:56 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@4ax.com>, Patrick
Cracroft-Brennan says...
Post by Patrick Cracroft-Brennan
Post by Manuel de Sousa
http://www.projectedletters.com/vault/duchess/
and
http://www.projectedletters.com/vault/2/duchess/
Having reviewed the extensive correspondence on this subject and read
these two documents, I have to say that I have the distinct impression
that I've been living in a parralel universe where events were
different to how they are being portayed on here.
As one of the few people in this newsgroup who met Maria Pia and spent
some time in her company, I think my recollections might be of some
interest.
As many of you know, for many years I was heavily involved in the
so-called Order of St Lazarus. In the early 80's there was a lot of
meetings to try and resolve the split in the Order between the Spanish
Obedience (headed by the Duke of Seville) and the Paris Obedience
(headed by the Duc de Brissac). The late Col Gayre was the prime
mover in this and early in 1984 some of us from the Spanish Obedience
together with representatives from the Paris Obedience were formed
into a committee to organise a joint meeting of the two branches of
the Order of St Lazarus, to be held in Oxford in 1986 (called JIRO86),
at which the re-union of the Order under the Grand Mastership of the
Duc de Brissac would be announced. The committee was headed by Rev
Paul Williamson with myself as Hon Treasurer.
In the run-up to JIRO86 we held various functions and it was here that
I first met Maria Pia. At that time she would be about 78. To my
surprise she was accompanied by an old (i.e. long established, not old
in years - he was in his mid 30's) Portuguese friend of mine, Antonio.
It turned out that he and Maria Pia were to be married, in
anticipation of which she had made him Count of Amado Nuevo. After
their subsequent marriage he claimed jure uxoris the title of Duke of
Braganza. I met Maria Pia on many occasions and found her charming
but totally batty (a bit like Princess Helena Moutafian who took Maria
Pia under her wing).
We had the meeting in Oxford (which was attended by Antonio and Maria
Pia as Duke and Duchess of Braganza - Antonio looked particularly
dashing in his swallow tailed uniform!), which turned out to be
partially successful. At about this time Eric Wreding, who had just
finished a long-term relationship with Rev Paul Williamson, the
Chairman of JIRO86, became Chancellor to the Duke and Duchess of
Braganza and was created Count of Evora (a title he still uses).
Now this is what confuses me with the first of the documents posted
above. It says that on 3 April 1987 she abdicated as Duchess of
Braganza in favour of Rosario Poidimani - and yet I know that Eric
Wreding was acting as her Chancellor until her death, and afterwards
as Chancellor to her daughter Christina, who also claims to be Duchess
of Braganza.
It was not until the early 90's that Eric first mentioned Rosario
Poidimani to me, and the context was on how much distress he was
causing Maria Pia and her daughter, though I was not sure how.
Unfortunately I lost contact with Eric (though he is still living in
London) when I severed my ties with the Lazarites in about 1993.
As Lewis Carroll would say, "Curiouser and curiouser".
It does sound very funny! I think there should be a musical,
it would do very well.
--
Guy Stair Sainty
www.chivalricorders.org/index3.htm
Patrick Cracroft-Brennan
2004-12-18 01:00:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Guy Stair Sainty
Cracroft-Brennan says...
Post by Patrick Cracroft-Brennan
Post by Manuel de Sousa
http://www.projectedletters.com/vault/duchess/
and
http://www.projectedletters.com/vault/2/duchess/
Having reviewed the extensive correspondence on this subject and read
these two documents, I have to say that I have the distinct impression
that I've been living in a parralel universe where events were
different to how they are being portayed on here.
As one of the few people in this newsgroup who met Maria Pia and spent
some time in her company, I think my recollections might be of some
interest.
As many of you know, for many years I was heavily involved in the
so-called Order of St Lazarus. In the early 80's there was a lot of
meetings to try and resolve the split in the Order between the Spanish
Obedience (headed by the Duke of Seville) and the Paris Obedience
(headed by the Duc de Brissac). The late Col Gayre was the prime
mover in this and early in 1984 some of us from the Spanish Obedience
together with representatives from the Paris Obedience were formed
into a committee to organise a joint meeting of the two branches of
the Order of St Lazarus, to be held in Oxford in 1986 (called JIRO86),
at which the re-union of the Order under the Grand Mastership of the
Duc de Brissac would be announced. The committee was headed by Rev
Paul Williamson with myself as Hon Treasurer.
In the run-up to JIRO86 we held various functions and it was here that
I first met Maria Pia. At that time she would be about 78. To my
surprise she was accompanied by an old (i.e. long established, not old
in years - he was in his mid 30's) Portuguese friend of mine, Antonio.
It turned out that he and Maria Pia were to be married, in
anticipation of which she had made him Count of Amado Nuevo. After
their subsequent marriage he claimed jure uxoris the title of Duke of
Braganza. I met Maria Pia on many occasions and found her charming
but totally batty (a bit like Princess Helena Moutafian who took Maria
Pia under her wing).
We had the meeting in Oxford (which was attended by Antonio and Maria
Pia as Duke and Duchess of Braganza - Antonio looked particularly
dashing in his swallow tailed uniform!), which turned out to be
partially successful. At about this time Eric Wreding, who had just
finished a long-term relationship with Rev Paul Williamson, the
Chairman of JIRO86, became Chancellor to the Duke and Duchess of
Braganza and was created Count of Evora (a title he still uses).
Now this is what confuses me with the first of the documents posted
above. It says that on 3 April 1987 she abdicated as Duchess of
Braganza in favour of Rosario Poidimani - and yet I know that Eric
Wreding was acting as her Chancellor until her death, and afterwards
as Chancellor to her daughter Christina, who also claims to be Duchess
of Braganza.
It was not until the early 90's that Eric first mentioned Rosario
Poidimani to me, and the context was on how much distress he was
causing Maria Pia and her daughter, though I was not sure how.
Unfortunately I lost contact with Eric (though he is still living in
London) when I severed my ties with the Lazarites in about 1993.
As Lewis Carroll would say, "Curiouser and curiouser".
It does sound very funny! I think there should be a musical,
it would do very well.
You're absolutely correct, Guy. The whole story has lurched from one
implausible scenario to another. Wonder if we should contact Mel
Brooks.....


Patrick Cracroft-Brennan FCA HonFHS
Director - Heraldic Media Limited
http://www.heraldicmedia.com
Publishers of "Cracroft's Peerage"
The complete guide to the British Peerage
http://www.cracroftspeerage.co.uk

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