Discussion:
The Bad Penny Returns
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Donald4564
2017-07-29 23:42:29 UTC
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Despite opinion polls for the last few years showing that most Australians are not interested in converting the country to a republic, the Labor Party has decided to put the question to the electorate within their first term of office if elected. It will be a simple yes/no plebiscite. If a "yes" is obtained there will be a second plebiscite whereby the electorate will be asked as to what type of republic they want.

With so many more pressing issues, and money needing to be spent in a number of areas, it is remarkable that the Labor Party can find $400 or so millions - which is probably what these two plebiscites will cost.

Mr. Shorten, the Labor leader, it is said has brought on the issue due to the recent confusion with dual-nationality of some of the sitting members of parliament, two of whom have had to resign. Mostly this state of affairs has been brought about by a decision of the High Court in 1996 which effectively confers "foreign" status on to other member nations of the Commonwealth including those relams which bear the same Sovereign as Australia. He has taken this ruling to imply that Her Majesty is now "foreign".

It is perfectly ridiculous that those countries who bear the same sovereign should be made foreign to each other. I cannot for the life of me see any sense in further isolating nations. A far more sensible policy would be that of strengthening bonds and unions. Of course Mr. Shorten may be alluding to the possibility that one day New Zealand may decide to declare war on Australia and he is therefore protecting us from such a situation by making sure that we would be facing a "foreign enemy".

What all this latest debacle shows is that tampering with the status quo without looking at every conceivable consequence can cause absolute messes to ensue. Politicians never look further than their nose, so it is quite understandable.

Regards
Donald Binks
The Chief
2017-07-30 01:35:14 UTC
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Post by Donald4564
Despite opinion polls for the last few years showing that most Australians are not interested in converting the country to a republic, the Labor Party has decided to put the question to the electorate within their first term of office if elected. It will be a simple yes/no plebiscite. If a "yes" is obtained there will be a second plebiscite whereby the electorate will be asked as to what type of republic they want.
With so many more pressing issues, and money needing to be spent in a number of areas, it is remarkable that the Labor Party can find $400 or so millions - which is probably what these two plebiscites will cost.
Mr. Shorten, the Labor leader, it is said has brought on the issue due to the recent confusion with dual-nationality of some of the sitting members of parliament, two of whom have had to resign. Mostly this state of affairs has been brought about by a decision of the High Court in 1996 which effectively confers "foreign" status on to other member nations of the Commonwealth including those relams which bear the same Sovereign as Australia. He has taken this ruling to imply that Her Majesty is now "foreign".
It is perfectly ridiculous that those countries who bear the same sovereign should be made foreign to each other. I cannot for the life of me see any sense in further isolating nations. A far more sensible policy would be that of strengthening bonds and unions. Of course Mr. Shorten may be alluding to the possibility that one day New Zealand may decide to declare war on Australia and he is therefore protecting us from such a situation by making sure that we would be facing a "foreign enemy".
What all this latest debacle shows is that tampering with the status quo without looking at every conceivable consequence can cause absolute messes to ensue. Politicians never look further than their nose, so it is quite understandable.
Regards
Donald Binks
Hurrah!
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-40763946

Regards,
The Chief
hihgdm
2017-08-02 11:11:50 UTC
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Post by Donald4564
Despite opinion polls for the last few years showing that most Australians are not interested in converting the country to a republic, the Labor Party has decided to put the question to the electorate within their first term of office if elected. It will be a simple yes/no plebiscite. If a "yes" is obtained there will be a second plebiscite whereby the electorate will be asked as to what type of republic they want.
With so many more pressing issues, and money needing to be spent in a number of areas, it is remarkable that the Labor Party can find $400 or so millions - which is probably what these two plebiscites will cost.
Mr. Shorten, the Labor leader, it is said has brought on the issue due to the recent confusion with dual-nationality of some of the sitting members of parliament, two of whom have had to resign. Mostly this state of affairs has been brought about by a decision of the High Court in 1996 which effectively confers "foreign" status on to other member nations of the Commonwealth including those relams which bear the same Sovereign as Australia. He has taken this ruling to imply that Her Majesty is now "foreign".
It is perfectly ridiculous that those countries who bear the same sovereign should be made foreign to each other. I cannot for the life of me see any sense in further isolating nations. A far more sensible policy would be that of strengthening bonds and unions. Of course Mr. Shorten may be alluding to the possibility that one day New Zealand may decide to declare war on Australia and he is therefore protecting us from such a situation by making sure that we would be facing a "foreign enemy".
What all this latest debacle shows is that tampering with the status quo without looking at every conceivable consequence can cause absolute messes to ensue. Politicians never look further than their nose, so it is quite understandable.
Regards
Donald Binks
--------------------
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/journals/DeakinLawRw/1999/8.pdf

The Australian High Court decided in 1999 that, from an Australian viewpoint, the United Kingdom was a "foreign power", because it no longer retained any legislative, executive or judicial influence over Australia. The majority decision noted that the Australia Act 1986 was pivotal in a legal sense, as was the ending of appeals to the Privy Council, but the overall position was that "Australia-through a series of events and legislative acts-had evolved into an independent and sovereign nation", which is a quote from the law review at the above link.

I've pointed out to you in the past that the UK has no more interest in Australia (or New Zealand) these days than it does in any other country, except perhaps for some waning nostalgia, as it's interests lie very much in the northern hemisphere (apart from a potential new trade deal that I heard about recently). I suspect there is more nostalgia from Oz amongst the older generation but younger people tend to be much more worldly and simply don't care about the issue.

Whatever the state of current polling in Oz on the issue of a republic, Shorten won't get very far unless the polling is on his side. Also, wouldn't the second vote have to be a referendum, given that a plebiscite is only advisory and not binding? In the late 90's there was a strong republican push, as you would remember, but these days it seems to have waned - probably due to a combination of apathy and the apparent appeal of the younger royals.

Interestingly, the case that decided the issue was about the nationality of one of Pauline Hanson's lackeys who won a senate seat. The woman concerned couldn't take up the seat, which must have been the cause of great rejoicing but it was brief because the second Pauline Hanson lackey on the ballot did take the seat.

As always, I'm sure the Queen is very pragmatic and will accept whatever happens. Although I think it is somewhat absurd that Oz, given that it is now totally and absolutely independent, would choose to retain someone who lives in another country and to all intents and purposes is a foreigner, as it's HOS, it does work, at least for the time being. I also don't understand the issue with so-called foreign countries - foreign to one another - having the same HOS. The Empire is dead in the water and the Commonwealth seems to be heading that way so the ties that you want simply don't exist anymore.
Donald4564
2017-08-02 12:44:47 UTC
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Post by hihgdm
Post by Donald4564
Despite opinion polls for the last few years showing that most Australians are not interested in converting the country to a republic, the Labor Party has decided to put the question to the electorate within their first term of office if elected. It will be a simple yes/no plebiscite. If a "yes" is obtained there will be a second plebiscite whereby the electorate will be asked as to what type of republic they want.
With so many more pressing issues, and money needing to be spent in a number of areas, it is remarkable that the Labor Party can find $400 or so millions - which is probably what these two plebiscites will cost.
Mr. Shorten, the Labor leader, it is said has brought on the issue due to the recent confusion with dual-nationality of some of the sitting members of parliament, two of whom have had to resign. Mostly this state of affairs has been brought about by a decision of the High Court in 1996 which effectively confers "foreign" status on to other member nations of the Commonwealth including those relams which bear the same Sovereign as Australia. He has taken this ruling to imply that Her Majesty is now "foreign".
It is perfectly ridiculous that those countries who bear the same sovereign should be made foreign to each other. I cannot for the life of me see any sense in further isolating nations. A far more sensible policy would be that of strengthening bonds and unions. Of course Mr. Shorten may be alluding to the possibility that one day New Zealand may decide to declare war on Australia and he is therefore protecting us from such a situation by making sure that we would be facing a "foreign enemy".
What all this latest debacle shows is that tampering with the status quo without looking at every conceivable consequence can cause absolute messes to ensue. Politicians never look further than their nose, so it is quite understandable.
Regards
Donald Binks
--------------------
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/journals/DeakinLawRw/1999/8.pdf
The Australian High Court decided in 1999 that, from an Australian viewpoint, the United Kingdom was a "foreign power", because it no longer retained any legislative, executive or judicial influence over Australia. The majority decision noted that the Australia Act 1986 was pivotal in a legal sense, as was the ending of appeals to the Privy Council, but the overall position was that "Australia-through a series of events and legislative acts-had evolved into an independent and sovereign nation", which is a quote from the law review at the above link.
I've pointed out to you in the past that the UK has no more interest in Australia (or New Zealand) these days than it does in any other country, except perhaps for some waning nostalgia, as it's interests lie very much in the northern hemisphere (apart from a potential new trade deal that I heard about recently). I suspect there is more nostalgia from Oz amongst the older generation but younger people tend to be much more worldly and simply don't care about the issue.
Whatever the state of current polling in Oz on the issue of a republic, Shorten won't get very far unless the polling is on his side. Also, wouldn't the second vote have to be a referendum, given that a plebiscite is only advisory and not binding? In the late 90's there was a strong republican push, as you would remember, but these days it seems to have waned - probably due to a combination of apathy and the apparent appeal of the younger royals.
Interestingly, the case that decided the issue was about the nationality of one of Pauline Hanson's lackeys who won a senate seat. The woman concerned couldn't take up the seat, which must have been the cause of great rejoicing but it was brief because the second Pauline Hanson lackey on the ballot did take the seat.
As always, I'm sure the Queen is very pragmatic and will accept whatever >happens. Although I think it is somewhat absurd that Oz, given that it is now >totally and absolutely independent, would choose to retain someone who lives in >another country and to all intents and purposes is a foreigner, as it's HOS, it >does work, at least for the time being. I also don't understand the issue with >so-called foreign countries - foreign to one another - having the same HOS. The >Empire is dead in the water and the Commonwealth seems to be heading that way >so the ties that you want simply don't exist anymore.
The Commonwealth has been allowed to fade away due to selfish politicians who have decided to grab whatever power they can for themselves. Look at what happened and is still happening in Africa. Look what happened when India was partitioned. Not very happy times for millions of peoples.

I am not saying the Empire was some Utopian cloud cuckoo land - but the Commonwealth was supposed to be a free association of independent nations. It was something that could easily have worked - however Britain was broke for so long and decided to head into Europe, so, naturally countries like Australia, Canada and New Zealand had to find other markets and associations that would be of benefit.

There is also the other great thing about the Commonwealth in that it brought many different peoples together so it is rather silly for everyone to act now as if we are all little separate states in a world that is continually shrinking. Sure we in Oz have bonds with other nations now but the Commonwealth bonds are the oldest and in my opinion could certainly be strengthened in view of Brexit and trade etc.,

So, my views are not purely nostalgic - although at my age, that is certainly there to an extent, but of common sense. I know that I walk an uphill battle when I speak of common sense as I think that it has mostly now gone out the window.

I only wonder if the Labor Party will cease and desist when they get another "no" about ditching the monarchy. Will we just keep having referendums every few years? Australians are not all Barry McKenzie types and there is still a lot of suspicion here of what the politicians are all up to - and - nobody has yet explained to us what form any republic will take.

When you mention about the dual-nationality issues that have tripped up a whole swag of politicians here recently - you can see how careful one has to be when one starts pulling apart all the fabric of how the nation was set up back in 1901. I just don't think anyone has really given any serious consideration as to how difficult it will be to change every single thing.

Quite frankly I am sure that Prince Phillip has made a few choice remarks to Her Majesty in private and the two of them are having quite a good laugh at all the stupid people involved in the farce.

Regards
Donald Binks

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